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Wingnutt


Witness the global tragedy of 9/11 in a deeply personal and utterly unique way: through the images and sounds captured by New Yorkers as the attack unfolded.

The date is forever reserved for reflection and remembrance.

Nothing made sense that morning. And it is stunning to look back now and realize how quickly the world-changing events occurred: a mere 102 minutes passed from first impact until the collapse of the second tower.

This extraordinary presentation from HISTORY chronicles in an utterly unique and compelling way the moment-by-moment advance of this unimaginable tragedy. Piecing together video and audio from over a hundred sources amateur and professional photographers, voicemails, emergency dispatch recordings, network out-takes, and much more 102 MINUTES THAT CHANGED AMERICA presents the attack as it was experienced.

Relive through the raw sights and sounds of that infamous morning the confusion, uncertainty and fear as the terror unfolded, and remember the bravery and valor of ordinary citizens and emergency responders. Intensely personal, universally affecting, 102 MINUTES presents an authentic and reverential chronicle of the unforgettable events of 9/11.



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Vaiagra
Every time I see 9/11 footage, without fail, it makes me tear up. I've seen those towers fall about a thousand times already and every single time I have the same reaction no matter how hard I try to suppress it.

The saddest aspect of 9/11 is the silent despair that's in the WTC for those 102 minutes. It's like the victims are in another dimension and no matter how hard you try, there's absolutely nothing anyone could do to help. When the towers collapse you're left with such a morose, morbid and empty feeling it completely depletes your soul.

This whole terrorism thing has to be dealt with properly. I saw a few TED talks regarding the subject and people seem to accept the fact that another 9/11 or some dirty nuke attack is inevitable. Umm.. WTF? Are we that pnwed as a nation that we can just sit back and wait for something awful like that to happen? Many terror cells inside the US have already been arrested -- what further proof do we need?

The problem here is that Americans don't grasp the mindset of Islamic terrorism. That's what Iraq and Afghanistan have proven to me. Why are we trying to help rebuild and democratize these places? This isn't about Bush or Haliburton. Look at the bigger picture here.

We are an empire. A strong, proud, civil (for the most part) and humane empire. We should treat these problems the same way we treated the suicidal invasion of pearl harbor. Hit 'em hard. Make them think twice.

Another example would be Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib. What annoyed me wasn't the torture, on the contrary - I think it was productive to a certain extent, but the fact that we've become such an effeminate, PC society that we'd actually report a story like that and hate ourselves for it. It's war, it's ugly, civilians get killed. We can't lose sight of the enemy here or the States will eventually turn in to Israel, where tit-for-tat terrorism (20 people killed here, 50 people killed there) unfortunately never really amounts to much -- and this is the exact aim of Islamic terrorism. Perpetuate guerilla warfare until society can't take it anymore and implodes. And it's an effective strategy.

Same goes for the collapse of the economy. I don't get it. People are quicker to blame Obama, health care reform, the fed, etc instead of looking at the bigger picture -- we've wasted billions trying to help Muslim countries rebuild themselves! What's the point of that? What's the point of the thousands of dead American soldiers and the countless others who return to the states with severe PTSD? Muslim countries won't change and they literally prove it on a daily basis.

This is a time to put our own interests before the interests of pleasing the UN and the international community.

This is literally what Islamic terrorism set out to achieve, and unfortunately, they're winning.

We need a tougher, harsher strategy. We also need to unconditionally support Israel because that is Islam's second major objective (to get the world to hate Israel -- and why should we? How is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict any different than a western-Muslim conflict?) And finally, we need to outlaw Islam in the States, palin and simple. There's no room for a 11th century mindset religion in the most modern society on earth.

The more we sit back, judge ourselves and wait for the inevitable -- the worse things will get for the next generation of Americans (and the rest of the civilized western world).

We need to grow some fucking balls.
litha
QUOTE(Vaiagra @ Oct 18 2009, 10:44 AM) *
We need to grow some fucking balls.


We just need to focus on our problems here at home and quit being team America world police.
As for your torture comment - sit a couple of days with a cayenne soaked bag over your head and you will confess to anything.


Vaiagra
I'm sorry, but I'll never feel guilty or sorry for water-boarding a few people to get hard intel while our enemy publicly resorts to beheading/shooting our citizens and posting videos online.

So what if ONE innocent inmate died in Abu Ghraib? Seriously. That's a very small price to pay. When American journalists or American-Iraqi care workers working FOR the Iraqi people (think Margaret Hassan) fall into the hands of "innocent" Iraqis (because many of the people behind the balaclava masks are not Sunni insurgents from other countries, but Iraqi nationals who hate the "invading crusader agenda") they always suffer a terrible, grisly fate.

You're part of the status quo, litha. I hope your liberal, self-laothing agenda works out for ya. Personally, I could care less about those people. Muslim terrorists hide behind woman and children -- and more often then not (esp. in Iraq and Afghanistan) the women and children are also the terrorists.

I'm sick of religious fanaticism, especially the Islamic kind.
MrFunyun
QUOTE(litha @ Oct 18 2009, 06:21 PM) *
We just need to focus on our problems here at home and quit being team America world police.
As for your torture comment - sit a couple of days with a cayenne soaked bag over your head and you will confess to anything.



I think this poster was referring to the accuracy and therefore usefulness of the information gathered in this manner; what you ignorantly call 'hard intel'.
You mistakenly wrote that 'Personally, I could care less about those people', but you don't which is why you are fixated on this issue. One letter is a typo, two is a slip.......

PS- your government is lying to you, not hiding things, but actually fabricating false stories for you to consume, Its so obvious even from way over here. Could you not even countenance that your political system has been subverted; even for a minute, so as to establish the veracity of such a statement?
This is why your great document has at its heart, not the protection of american terrritory but the protection of american ideals, from enemies abroad and at home.......because that is what is being attacked, and that is what you should be defending, without them your country means nothing to the outside world.
Wingnutt
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miaru
Thanks Wingnutt. I do hope Vaiagra helps himself to the content of the links you provided.
Vaiagra
Thanks for the links. I'll watch 'em tonight.
litha
QUOTE(Vaiagra @ Oct 18 2009, 01:08 PM) *
I'm sorry, but I'll never feel guilty or sorry for water-boarding a few people to get hard intel while our enemy publicly resorts to beheading/shooting our citizens and posting videos online.

So what if ONE innocent inmate died in Abu Ghraib? Seriously. That's a very small price to pay. When American journalists or American-Iraqi care workers working FOR the Iraqi people (think Margaret Hassan) fall into the hands of "innocent" Iraqis (because many of the people behind the balaclava masks are not Sunni insurgents from other countries, but Iraqi nationals who hate the "invading crusader agenda") they always suffer a terrible, grisly fate.

You're part of the status quo, litha. I hope your liberal, self-laothing agenda works out for ya. Personally, I could care less about those people. Muslim terrorists hide behind woman and children -- and more often then not (esp. in Iraq and Afghanistan) the women and children are also the terrorists.

I'm sick of religious fanaticism, especially the Islamic kind.


Self loathing agenda?(made me laugh), No its just the facts that have proven themselves for time and time again over centuries.. It is widely known that any kind of torture does not work. And We (US) fanned the flames of the Geneva convention on that issue in WWII so our boys would not be tortured and treated fairly. We know torture does not work, You will confess to anything to avoid that kind of treatment.

Muslim terrorists? I'm just as scared of our Christen terrorists here in the US. Same kind of fervor, different name.



I would suggest watching those documentaries that Wingnutt posted and please open your eyes ,your brain and your heart.
smarrie
I would add Massimo Mazzucco's 'The New American Century' (2006) to Wingnutt's doc list. It is the best all-inclusive historical overview (maybe an information overload) "expos[ing] all the lies of the past so that you can understand the present." Pay particular attention to the TAPI pipeline portion for an insight into our current predicament in Afghanistan.
http://ipb.quicksilverscreen.com/index.php?showtopic=170096
maximius
QUOTE(Vaiagra @ Oct 18 2009, 08:08 PM) *
I'm sorry, but I'll never feel guilty or sorry for water-boarding a few people to get hard intel while our enemy publicly resorts to beheading/shooting our citizens and posting videos online.

So what if ONE innocent inmate died in Abu Ghraib? Seriously. That's a very small price to pay. When American journalists or American-Iraqi care workers working FOR the Iraqi people (think Margaret Hassan) fall into the hands of "innocent" Iraqis (because many of the people behind the balaclava masks are not Sunni insurgents from other countries, but Iraqi nationals who hate the "invading crusader agenda") they always suffer a terrible, grisly fate.

You're part of the status quo, litha. I hope your liberal, self-laothing agenda works out for ya. Personally, I could care less about those people. Muslim terrorists hide behind woman and children -- and more often then not (esp. in Iraq and Afghanistan) the women and children are also the terrorists.

I'm sick of religious fanaticism, especially the Islamic kind.

I totally hear you bro..^^
maximius
QUOTE(litha @ Oct 19 2009, 06:09 PM) *
Self loathing agenda?(made me laugh), No its just the facts that have proven themselves for time and time again over centuries.. It is widely known that any kind of torture does not work. And We (US) fanned the flames of the Geneva convention on that issue in WWII so our boys would not be tortured and treated fairly. We know torture does not work, You will confess to anything to avoid that kind of treatment.

Muslim terrorists? I'm just as scared of our Christen terrorists here in the US. Same kind of fervor, different name.
I would suggest watching those documentaries that Wingnutt posted and please open your eyes ,your brain and your heart.


Sorry,but you and Wignuts tinfoil hats are visible from space, man...tone it down dude.
"pretty much proven" where you do that deep and conclusive research ? let me guess, the internet?
I thought I knew pretty much of the world too,until I actually experienced it first hand..that was a lesson for me when I got the real world straight in the face...that I could call "an EYE OPENER"'
,to suggest that someone watch some biased documentaries to make up their mind about how they feel about the GWOT and the politics attached to it, is just plain irresponsible..
litha
QUOTE(maximius @ Oct 19 2009, 10:35 PM) *
Sorry,but you and Wignuts tinfoil hats are visible from space, man...tone it down dude.
"pretty much proven" where you do that deep and conclusive research ? let me guess, the internet?
I thought I knew pretty much of the world too,until I actually experienced it first hand..that was a lesson for me when I got the real world straight in the face...that I could call "an EYE OPENER"'
,to suggest that someone watch some biased documentaries to make up their mind about how they feel about the GWOT and the politics attached to it, is just plain irresponsible..


First off its Madam not dude and second you research it. I'm too old to do your homework. I know you need a justification of the war your fighting and I'm sorry for it. You mentioned that issue in another thread.
Ive lived through Vietnam ,the first gulf war and now this one. I grew up in a military family and my uncle was a POW/MIA for 4 years. I have 49 years of first hand experience. So don't tell me I have a tin foil hat on when it comes to torture. My uncle survived years of it and is still having issues. Go trot off and play your little war games and delude yourself that you are "fightin" for freedom . One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Read the Geneva convention and who was instrumental in writing it. There is your proof.
Wingnutt
...
Wingnutt
QUOTE(Vaiagra @ Oct 19 2009, 07:25 AM) *
Thanks for the links. I'll watch 'em tonight.


You're welcome smile.gif
Vaiagra
Ok, so I watched all the docu's, including what smarrie recommended. I've seen "Taxi to the dark side" before, but it's been a while so I watched it again.

As far as torture is concerned, I'll admit, that's a tough one. On one hand, I find it hard to advocate torture because I wouldn't want to be an innocent person wrongfully accused, waterboarded, beaten, etc. It's the same as advocating the death penalty, which I do. On the other hand, I find it hard to believe that torture "never works", because maybe in some cases it does and at the end of the day, it still beats being shot or beheaded.

As far as Islam and the war on terror is concerned, my views remain the same. Not because I'm hateful, not because I'm ignorant -- because I really do believe that religion is destroying the hope for a relatively peaceful and sane world, and that of all religions, Islam is the most oppressive, brutal, unfair, ludicrous and insane. I HATE Islam, and I've seen/heard enough horror at the hands of this religion to already last a lifetime. I do believe that at any given moment since the 60's, a military industrial complex undertone has plagued the US government -- but I take it all with a grain of salt after 9/11.

Regarding Iraq, I think that if Americans knew the Arab mind a little better, like the Israelis do, they would be able to somewhat foresee what we're witnessing today. Unfortuantely, and this may seem racist but I'm not going to deny it, I don't think the Arab world has evolved -- and it's ridiculous for us to treat them that way. Democracy will not happen in that region (aside from Israel of course) for probably another 50 years.

Look at Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afganistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Syria, etc. Those aren't civil, liberal and democratic countries. Even if they calm themselves democratic, they are all anything but that.

And finally, lets not forget that EVERY SINGLE DAY WITHOUT FAIL some Muslim wacko commits a brutal murder.

To summarize -- as much as my heart goes out to innocent people who are tortured and/or killed in the name of this war on terror, I believe that Arab mentality and Islamic "culture" literally ruining this planet. I'm fed up with Arabs using Israel as a scapegoar for their own goddamn problems. I'm fed up with the "Palestinians". I'm fed up with Afghan "civilians" who we have to bribe in order for them not to kill themselves. Islam is JUST like Nazism, it's either in this world or it isn't.

jouno4
Wow Vaiagra, I think you have some serious misconceptions about the world we live in. Torture is simply barbaric. There are many other useful and much more effective techniques to utilize in order to obtain the desired information. Dependent on your definition of the word torture I suppose. Use of torture, like war, gets us into some seriously hot water. I mean, you kill one guy, or woman as the case may be, and their child grows up to resent those that killed or tortured their parents and you have a ready made suicide bomber, or some other variety of resentful hate monger. Why perpetuate this sick cycle? If as you admit torture only works in some cases, why not use more effective means to the same end which always works? I at least appreciate your attempts to put yourself in someone elses shoes though.

I agree with you that religion is eroding our ability to live in a relatively peaceful and happy coexistence with one another. However, I have always found the use of the term War on Terror laughable. How is it even possible to think you can actually have a war on terror anyways? Terror is a mental condition and trying to fight it with physical means is just plain dumb. All that does is give people justification for their actions and allows for further hostilities to develop. Since you believe Islam to be the plague of the modern western world, I ask you, how many people do you think die each day by the hands of American troops that have that very morning been to a Christian service? Its like the crusades all over again, and rather than the wealthy funding it this time its the good ol passive, ignorant US taxpayer footing the bill in the name of democracy. Yeah right! Its not really even about the oil; its about building bases in the area so that we can exercise our influence in the area and covert people to democracy. Hum, sound familiar?

This whole 9/11 thing really pisses me off. How can we complain about a mere 3,000 some odd people dying in such an event when we dropped not one, but two nuclear weapons on innocent Japanese civilians killing not thousands but hundreds of thousands in just a few seconds? Its hypocritical.

If the Arab world has not evolved why then is it the birthplace of mathematics, scientific thinking, and civilization itself? Furthermore, why should people in the region be subject to conversion to democracy simply because we deem it best for them? If they wanted democracy you think they would have chosen it a long time ago but they dont. Every time we have tried this in the past without fail it has been unsuccessful. I suppose you also believe America to be a democracy as well. Oh yeah, its government for the people by the people here for sure! Um hum, and American style democracy as well as the extraordinarily extravagant way of life arent ruining the planet?
maximius
QUOTE(litha @ Oct 20 2009, 06:16 AM) *
First off its Madam not dude and second you research it. I'm too old to do your homework. I know you need a justification of the war your fighting and I'm sorry for it. You mentioned that issue in another thread.
Ive lived through Vietnam ,the first gulf war and now this one. I grew up in a military family and my uncle was a POW/MIA for 4 years. I have 49 years of first hand experience. So don't tell me I have a tin foil hat on when it comes to torture. My uncle survived years of it and is still having issues. Go trot off and play your little war games and delude yourself that you are "fightin" for freedom . One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Read the Geneva convention and who was instrumental in writing it. There is your proof.

The people we are fighting in A-stan arent signatories to the Geneva convention,they arent part of any armed forces of a recognized faction...thus they are criminals,and the Geneva convention doesnt apply to them.
You people seem all too eager to support the ones that wouldnt hesitate one second to slit your throat or decapitate you if they caught you or any other westernes (given that they didnt have anything to gain by keeping you alive.)

I too grew up in a military family,moving around the world..I have always held a great interest in history and politics,and I regard myself as a pretty well informed individual,so I didnt join the Military just to "kill people" or solely on the grounds of adventure..
I would at an earlier time in my life actually agree with you,and if not totally convinced I were somewhat fascinated by the conspiracy theories,and maybe even thought some of the less controversial claims were somewhat plausible..

But when I did my own research ,went to libraries ,did extensive reading of books,looked trough old archives as well as used the internet in addition to consulting experts on the subjects from a somewhat neutral standpoint and weighing it all up to each other, it became clear to me that none of the conspiracy theories held water..
I still regarded myself as a pretty well informed individual,that knew most that is to know about the world and how its working,and to some degree that was true..but when I saw some of the things that happened on the ground down there,it was all set in a new perspective for me..

Yes you might have lived "trough" the Vietnam war..and Im sorry to hear abt your MIA/POW relative,that is an undeniable tragedy and I can certainly sympahize with that(I take it he was USAF or USN?).
While conflict was very different than anything that we are fighting today,despite the similarities in some of the counter-insurgency aspects,I take it you never actually set foot in any of these conflict zones that you mentioned..simply living in the same time or having a relative that was a combatant,even growing up in a Military family..doesnt qualify you to state anything at all as "facts".but knowing the controversial nature of that conflict and how it ripped apart the country,I can see how you aquired some of your views.

Im not saying,that I am in any shape or form that my opinions are "the word of god set in stone",but some of the things I do definitive know as undisbutable facts and that is what I have seen with my own two eyes..everything else are just opinions,as are your claims.

And I stand by my statement that suggesting to someone ,that they make up their opinions on politics ,world views or conspiracy theories ,based
on some highly biased "documentaries"(yes I have watched them)..is irresponsible..and now knowing your adult age I would go as far as to say its EXTREMELY irresponsible!
Surely you cant fail to recognize this ,being the somewhat intelligent individual that you appear to be.
Vaiagra
@juono4,

Yes, torture is barbaric. But if torturing a handful of people (and letting them live) to get intel that saves the lives of innocent civilians, I'm all for it. You don't have to lecture me on how painful and disturbing waterboarding is, but I'd rather have 30 people stay alive if it means to beat the shit out of one person.

Yes, the term "war on terror" is ridiculous, but you know what I mean. It's a phrase coined by people who DO NOT understand middle east politics (or lack thereof), I used it to give the gist of the past 8 years.

You're dead wrong about your Crusade remark. No offense, but you sound like a Muslim. I don't think Marines in Iraq were there to do god's bidding. If you can't differentiate between a people that are waging holy war on us versus a country which has Judeo-Christian beliefs that's on the opposite side of the battlefield, we'll never be able to have a proper debate here.

It's a Muslim crusade against Christians and Jews, if anything.

Yes, America IS A DEMOCRACY. If it weren't, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. Look what happened to the internet in Iran during their "democratic" elections. That's tyranny for ya.

Oh come on. So what if the Arab world was the birthplace of mathematics a thousand years ago? Seriously. The world is a different place. Look at how many Nobel laureates and books are published yearly by Israel versus the Arab world. The statistics are mind-boggling. If you can't find them yourself, I'll look 'em up.

You sound like someone who's all for peace, equality and harmony. I can understand your point of view and before 9/11 I was the exact same way. Like Maximus said, it's a matter of educating yourself with history books (not just documentaries) and thinking outside the box. To acheive the world you want, sacrifices need to be made. I'm not Hitler, nor would I ever advocate genocide, but so long as Islam is in this world, post 9/11, there will NOT be any peace.

And again, the US is absolutely a democracy. No one said democracy would be perfect. But we don't hang homosexuals in the street, we don't stone unfaithful wives and we don't behead foreigners. If you REALLY feel the US isn't democratic, all it takes is one visit to Saudi Arabia or any other devout Muslim nation -- you'll be in jail (or worse) for having a fucking beer.

Is that democracy to you? Does that sound like a scientific mecca of peace, harmony and understanding?

Islam is a brutal, primitive, fascist, racist and sexist 11th century "religion" and it has corroded the middle east.

And yes, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were horrible. Beyond horrible. But it stopped a war with Japan and deterred them from further hostilities towards the US.
maximius
QUOTE(jouno4 @ Oct 20 2009, 05:01 PM) *
Wow Vaiagra, I think you have some serious misconceptions about the world we live in. Torture is simply barbaric. There are many other useful and much more effective techniques to utilize in order to obtain the desired information. Dependent on your definition of the word torture I suppose. Use of torture, like war, gets us into some seriously hot water. I mean, you kill one guy, or woman as the case may be, and their child grows up to resent those that killed or tortured their parents and you have a ready made suicide bomber, or some other variety of resentful hate monger. Why perpetuate this sick cycle? If as you admit torture only works in some cases, why not use more effective means to the same end which always works? I at least appreciate your attempts to put yourself in someone else€š€žs shoes though.

I agree with you that religion is eroding our ability to live in a relatively peaceful and happy coexistence with one another. However, I have always found the use of the term €š€œWar on Terror€š laughable. How is it even possible to think you can actually have a war on terror anyways? Terror is a mental condition and trying to fight it with physical means is just plain dumb. All that does is give people justification for their actions and allows for further hostilities to develop. Since you believe Islam to be the plague of the modern western world, I ask you, how many people do you think die each day by the hands of American troops that have that very morning been to a Christian service? Its like the crusades all over again, and rather than the wealthy funding it this time it€š€žs the good ol€š€ž passive, ignorant US taxpayer footing the bill in the name of democracy. Yeah right! It€š€žs not really even about the oil; it€š€žs about building bases in the area so that we can exercise our influence in the area and covert people to €š€œdemocracy€š. Hum, sound familiar?

This whole 9/11 thing really pisses me off. How can we complain about a mere 3,000 some odd people dying in such an event when we dropped not one, but two nuclear weapons on innocent Japanese civilians killing not thousands but hundreds of thousands in just a few seconds? It€š€žs hypocritical.

If the Arab world has not evolved why then is it the birthplace of mathematics, scientific thinking, and civilization itself? Furthermore, why should people in the region be subject to €š€œconversion€š to democracy simply because we deem it best for them? If they wanted democracy you think they would have chosen it a long time ago but they don€š€žt. Every time we have tried this in the past without fail it has been unsuccessful. I suppose you also believe America to be a democracy as well. Oh yeah, its government for the people by the people here for sure! Um hum, and American style democracy as well as the extraordinarily extravagant way of life aren€š€žt ruining the planet?



I can assure you,that noone on our side is fighting this war is fighting in the name of any "god",while we do have services..they for the most part are litteraly "lip services" so the whole "crusade" fantasy is a moot point.
While I agree that the whole "war on Terror" is somewhat laughable..that is just simply a name, and have little to do with the actual conflict.
It may have started that way,but now its all about creating peace and stability in a region of the world that hasnt seen peace in over 30 years.

I dont think you realize the sinister nature of our oponents..these are people that are blindly guided by religion in the harshest sense...
They dont recognize the rights of women at all,let alone their right to an education...Much of the ISAF forces time is devoted to simply keeping females safe from being killed on their way to or from newly buildt schools(cause they were virtually nonexistant,same with fresh water sources).
They hide among the civilian population ,having them live in terror while maybe taking their elder sons and forcing them to fight their cause.(or else they wipe out their entire family).
When an enemy combatant is killed ,they always make sure to remove any weapons so that it appears that "innocent civillians" were killed as well as keeping civillians in their fortifications,not as shields but so that when they get killed they can blame it on us..
These are some of the tactics these people use..and I wont hesitate to state that they are living in a completely different century then us mentally.

I could keep listing these things forever ,but I take it you get the idea..
Im not telling you to enlist in the Military or anything,im just suggesting you try to look at things from all sides with a neutral mindset ,and at the very least support the troops.
Nothing in this thing is as black and white as the media and some "documentary makers" try to make them appear to be..
People living in sort of a comfort zone "bubble" far from anything remotely resembling war..are always the people that cries fault the loudest without really having any idea what their talking about..

EDIT: Of course we would want to maintain bases in that area and have somewhat control of a major part of the world's oil..
That makes perfect sense from a military and political standpoint,surely you realize that.
It serves to not at least ,to maintain our own security.
maximius
QUOTE(Vaiagra @ Oct 20 2009, 05:51 PM) *
@juono4,

Yes, torture is barbaric. But if torturing a handful of people (and letting them live) to get intel that saves the lives of innocent civilians, I'm all for it. You don't have to lecture me on how painful and disturbing waterboarding is, but I'd rather have 30 people stay alive if it means to beat the shit out of one person.

Yes, the term "war on terror" is ridiculous, but you know what I mean. It's a phrase coined by people who DO NOT understand middle east politics (or lack thereof), I used it to give the gist of the past 8 years.

You're dead wrong about your Crusade remark. No offense, but you sound like a Muslim. I don't think Marines in Iraq were there to do god's bidding. If you can't differentiate between a people that are waging holy war on us versus a country which has Judeo-Christian beliefs that's on the opposite side of the battlefield, we'll never be able to have a proper debate here.

It's a Muslim crusade against Christians and Jews, if anything.

Yes, America IS A DEMOCRACY. If it weren't, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. Look what happened to the internet in Iran during their "democratic" elections. That's tyranny for ya.

Oh come on. So what if the Arab world was the birthplace of mathematics a thousand years ago? Seriously. The world is a different place. Look at how many Nobel laureates and books are published yearly by Israel versus the Arab world. The statistics are mind-boggling. If you can't find them yourself, I'll look 'em up.

You sound like someone who's all for peace, equality and harmony. I can understand your point of view and before 9/11 I was the exact same way. Like Maximus said, it's a matter of educating yourself with history books (not just documentaries) and thinking outside the box. To acheive the world you want, sacrifices need to be made. I'm not Hitler, nor would I ever advocate genocide, but so long as Islam is in this world, post 9/11, there will NOT be any peace.

And again, the US is absolutely a democracy. No one said democracy would be perfect. But we don't hang homosexuals in the street, we don't stone unfaithful wives and we don't behead foreigners. If you REALLY feel the US isn't democratic, all it takes is one visit to Saudi Arabia or any other devout Muslim nation -- you'll be in jail (or worse) for having a fucking beer.

Is that democracy to you? Does that sound like a scientific mecca of peace, harmony and understanding?

Islam is a brutal, primitive, fascist, racist and sexist 11th century "religion" and it has corroded the middle east.

And yes, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were horrible. Beyond horrible. But it stopped a war with Japan and deterred them from further hostilities towards the US.

I believe as long as there is Religion in general there will always be extremists and no peace..but all muslims arent terrorists,very very far from it..just as all christians arent for example IRA..
But im guessing you realize this
MrFunyun
Some pure madness here, people just out for a sunday drive. banned dude did you really get through that much in one
night? Maximus keeps saying he is well researched etc etc, then he says he is well researched etc etc and then the same
again. But there is no evidence of this claim anywhere in his posts. He says he doesn't believe in any of 'the
conspiracies'. Lol what's troubling you man? Do you eat? do you not conspire with others as to how to acquire your meal?
There is no great conspiracy, but there are always many little ones, people conspire for their own ends. This is a
basic function of the human condition, how can you allow yourself to be so obtuse?
I keep walking the road anyways and meet beings that I realise wont allow themselves to be reasonable, due to any of
the various traumas that are a result of pure industrial education, i can only suppose; and i want to reach out to them
but some people are so hard to get to. No matter how much love you show them, they see it as feigned. It seems like
they see this act as some sort of red plot of subversion, and then we all ponder on who fruitcake is.
So it occurs to me that they have decided to pick a side and to promote a state of inflexibility, in which case they haven't actively chosen, the notion of actual choice is elusive and unapparent; having been betrayed by their perceived lack of choice, there is only 'democracy'; choice and free will have nothing to do with it.
banned says "You don't have to lecture me on how painful and disturbing waterboarding is, but I'd rather have 30 people
stay alive if it means to beat the shit out of one person". This inane and inculcated fascist logic seems to be the
one constant that is being used to support these arguments. But i will play the game, please allow me to proceed and
advance this simple thought process; for if you instead protect this one lad instead of torturing him what cause will
he have to rebel against the others? You see how you have made a vacuum out of your argument?
If you are to stand over what you believe then how can you deny other peoples the same opportunity to 'evolve' and mature in the same way that that you believe has happened where you come from? Is this not torture also, albeit prolonged? How can you deny them that opportunity of self determination? How are they supposed to be aware what has been learnt from this? how do you expect them to function in a 'civilised' fashion, are you gonna tell them how???

Lastly i wish to apologise for how abrasive this post my sound to some people.
that is all




ps dunno whay it keeps calling v i a g r a dude banned, i guess the word banned is banned??
maximius
QUOTE(MrFunyun @ Oct 20 2009, 09:24 PM) *
Some pure madness here, people just out for a sunday drive. banned dude did you really get through that much in one
night? Maximus keeps saying he is well researched etc etc, then he says he is well researched etc etc and then the same
again. But there is no evidence of this claim anywhere in his posts. He says he doesn't believe in any of 'the
conspiracies'. Lol what's troubling you man? Do you eat? do you not conspire with others as to how to acquire your meal?
There is no great conspiracy, but there are always many little ones, people conspire for their own ends. This is a
basic function of the human condition, how can you allow yourself to be so obtuse?
I keep walking the road anyways and meet beings that I realise wont allow themselves to be reasonable, due to any of
the various traumas that are a result of pure industrial education, i can only suppose; and i want to reach out to them
but some people are so hard to get to. No matter how much love you show them, they see it as feigned. It seems like
they see this act as some sort of red plot of subversion, and then we all ponder on who fruitcake is.
So it occurs to me that they have decided to pick a side and to promote a state of inflexibility, in which case they haven't actively chosen, the notion of actual choice is elusive and unapparent; having been betrayed by their perceived lack of choice, there is only 'democracy'; choice and free will have nothing to do with it.
banned says "You don't have to lecture me on how painful and disturbing waterboarding is, but I'd rather have 30 people
stay alive if it means to beat the shit out of one person". This inane and inculcated fascist logic seems to be the
one constant that is being used to support these arguments. But i will play the game, please allow me to proceed and
advance this simple thought process; for if you instead protect this one lad instead of torturing him what cause will
he have to rebel against the others? You see how you have made a vacuum out of your argument?
If you are to stand over what you believe then how can you deny other peoples the same opportunity to 'evolve' and mature in the same way that that you believe has happened where you come from? Is this not torture also, albeit prolonged? How can you deny them that opportunity of self determination? How are they supposed to be aware what has been learnt from this? how do you expect them to function in a 'civilised' fashion, are you gonna tell them how???

Lastly i wish to apologise for how abrasive this post my sound to some people.
that is all
ps dunno whay it keeps calling v i a g r a dude banned, i guess the word banned is banned??


That was a huge block of text man!
You dont exactly present "proof" yourself,how could you by the way,there is only so much you could "prove" to other individuals over the internet.

Im not trying to prove anything,im merely presenting my opinion on conspiracy theories..
The other things I stated about civilian casualties and enemy combatants are based on my own experiences as well as other good friends and coleagues first hand accounts.
Thank you.
MrFunyun
QUOTE(maximius @ Oct 20 2009, 09:25 PM) *
That was a huge block of text man!
You dont exactly present "proof" yourself,how could you by the way,there is only so much you could "prove" to other individuals over the internet.

Im not trying to prove anything,im merely presenting my opinion on conspiracy theories..
The other things I stated about civilian casualties and enemy combatants are based on my own experiences as well as other good friends and coleagues first hand accounts.
Thank you.




A little chunky, hey? Your response is the expected deflection.
Provide proof of what? You said you were presenting your opinions on the nature of conspiracy. I merely said that people conspire, and therefore as a logical conclusion they do so on different levels. Please take care not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I have confidence in you. I cannot think of anything else i can say to you now other than to risk being accused of arrogance when i tell you to listen, which is an acquired skill beyond the perception of your ears. Beyond hearing. Beyond the orders of any marching band of men.




Ps if people did not conspire then why do we have the word conspire?
maximius
QUOTE(MrFunyun @ Oct 21 2009, 12:07 AM) *
A little chunky, hey? Your response is the expected deflection.
Provide proof of what? You said you were presenting your opinions on the nature of conspiracy. I merely said that people conspire, and therefore as a logical conclusion they do so on different levels. Please take care not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I have confidence in you. I cannot think of anything else i can say to you now other than to risk being accused of arrogance when i tell you to listen, which is an acquired skill beyond the perception of your ears. Beyond hearing. Beyond the orders of any marching band of men.
Ps if people did not conspire then why do we have the word conspire?


By no means unreasonable or arrogant..I am listening to you,but if I reach a different conclusion or just plain out disagree..please do not line me up against the wall and dismiss my opinions as "regurgitation of w/e my CO tells me to say"..
thank you.

Of course people do conspire on different scales..like criminals..they conspire all the time,but please realize what I meant the common "9/11 was an inside job" conspiracy theories that falls on its own unreasonability.
Vaiagra
Well I do actually feel kinda bad for how I expressed myself. I didn't have to get so carried away for what it's worth. 9/11 footage can do that to you. Anyway, My opinions and views stay the same but I apologize for being such a prick and using the word "hate". At the end of the day, we're all flawed human beings.
litha
Let me you guys ask two questions here.

If you (or or son,daughter,wife) where pulled off the street,held captive and preceded to be tortured for something you truly did not know about, would you confess/lie just to stop the pain?


What if your daughter was accused as a domestic terrorist and is water boarded/ electrocuted to find information on the whereabouts of a terrorist ringleader. She confesses that you are hiding him in your house in the basement,how would you feel,is the confession valid?
(lets say she is actually guilty but has no idea where he is )

Looking forward to your answers
maximius
QUOTE(litha @ Oct 21 2009, 08:11 PM) *
Let me you guys ask two questions here.

If you (or or son,daughter,wife) where pulled off the street,held captive and preceded to be tortured for something you truly did not know about, would you confess/lie just to stop the pain?
What if your daughter was accused as a domestic terrorist and is water boarded/ electrocuted to find information on the whereabouts of a terrorist ringleader. She confesses that you are hiding him in your house in the basement,how would you feel,is the confession valid?
(lets say she is actually guilty but has no idea where he is )

Looking forward to your answers


Excellent questions.
1.To be completely honest,I do not think anyone could endure prolonged proper torture,(like pulling of fingernails etc,you get the picture) so yes I would break,so would most individuals.

2.Absolutely not,let me make my self clear on this point,I do not condone or support torture in any shape or form..its a reduntant and ineffective form of information extraction,and do not at a general level produce genuine information.
litha
QUOTE(maximius @ Oct 21 2009, 04:37 PM) *
Excellent questions.
1.To be completely honest,I do not think anyone could endure prolonged proper torture,(like pulling of fingernails etc,you get the picture) so yes I would break,so would most individuals.

2.Absolutely not,let me make my self clear on this point,I do not condone or support torture in any shape or form..its a reduntant and ineffective form of information extraction,and do not at a general level produce genuine information.


Now that's very good to hear and thank you so much for your answers.

PS. I have to get you back for pointing out my spelling error earlier in this thread , reduntant is spelled redundant.



Vaiagra? lets hear your answers.
maximius
QUOTE(litha @ Oct 22 2009, 02:38 AM) *
Now that's very good to hear and thank you so much for your answers.

PS. I have to get you back for pointing out my spelling error earlier in this thread , reduntant is spelled redundant.
Vaiagra? lets hear your answers.

Woops,a little slip up there..did I correct your spelling earlier?..wow must have been a moment where my brain were turned off..usually I attempt to not generally act like a douche..
Maybe I felt in that other thread I posted in I felt like the "whole" forum was against me somehow,partly because of my own hostile posts.
I dont know,ever since Ive been back I had difficulties relating to "regular" people,maybe its me thats just a "drama queen".
Hostility seems to be a very easy thing to resort to where I normally would act reasonable,frustration takes over where reason ends,cause I feel nobody understands what I am trying to convey in some of my posts..how could they anyhow?
Vaiagra
Hey litha,

Regarding your questions:

1. It goes without saying that whatever my answer is, I have no way of knowing how I'd react if I were actually under those circumstances.. that said.. if I was that taxi cab driver and was tortured for unknowingly driving a terrorist around, my strategy would be to tell them everything I remember about the guy, tell them my background, tell them everything the guy said to me, tell them everything I know about militant activity in my area -- talk talk talk talk talk. I'd willfully participate, I'd try to convince them of my innocence as best I could and I would stick to my guns and try to remain as calm as possible.

Now here's a question for you: If you were an American contractor held by militants and were to be executed within 48 hours unless your government withdrew its troops, and you obviously have no say in the matter, how would you react? What would you do to survive?

2. I'm not a patriotic redneck or anything, but if I found out my daughter was alleged in some murderous terrorism plot, I'd turn her in myself. If she framed me and I were brought in to be tortured, and I knew she was guilty, I'd tell the authorities everything. Now lets say my daughter was raped by an alcoholic boyfriend or something, and they fought and in the struggle she killed him, I'd defend her innocence to the ends of the earth. My point here is that I equate Islamic terrorism with the worst of human nature, and if I were to find a relative or something involved in such a plot, I'd be the FIRST to turn them in and if they were tortured and/or killed, I could care less.

Another question for you: If you knew that your husband, daughter or son were up to something, were meeting with shady Muslim figures at the local mosque, buying chemicals and materials to make explosives -- would you turn them in or would you put yourself, your national pride, your family and own fears and insecurities before your common sense and decency as a human being?
maximius
QUOTE(Vaiagra @ Oct 22 2009, 02:03 PM) *
Hey litha,

Regarding your questions:

1. It goes without saying that whatever my answer is, I have no way of knowing how I'd react if I were actually under those circumstances.. that said.. if I was that taxi cab driver and was tortured for unknowingly driving a terrorist around, my strategy would be to tell them everything I remember about the guy, tell them my background, tell them everything the guy said to me, tell them everything I know about militant activity in my area -- talk talk talk talk talk. I'd willfully participate, I'd try to convince them of my innocence as best I could and I would stick to my guns and try to remain as calm as possible.

Now here's a question for you: If you were an American contractor held by militants and were to be executed within 48 hours unless your government withdrew its troops, and you obviously have no say in the matter, how would you react? What would you do to survive?

2. I'm not a patriotic redneck or anything, but if I found out my daughter was alleged in some murderous terrorism plot, I'd turn her in myself. If she framed me and I were brought in to be tortured, and I knew she was guilty, I'd tell the authorities everything. Now lets say my daughter was raped by an alcoholic boyfriend or something, and they fought and in the struggle she killed him, I'd defend her innocence to the ends of the earth. My point here is that I equate Islamic terrorism with the worst of human nature, and if I were to find a relative or something involved in such a plot, I'd be the FIRST to turn them in and if they were tortured and/or killed, I could care less.

Another question for you: If you knew that your husband, daughter or son were up to something, were meeting with shady Muslim figures at the local mosque, buying chemicals and materials to make explosives -- would you turn them in or would you put yourself, your national pride, your family and own fears and insecurities before your common sense and decency as a human being?


Of course I would turn in any relative involved in any terrorist plot..that goes without saying.
Menace


Description:
102 Minutes That Changed America is a documentary of the events that happened on September 11th 2001 when terrorists changed the United States forever. This special documentary featuring eye witness accounts of what happened that day premiered on the History Channel on September 11, 2008. It marked the seventh anniversary of the tragic attacks which claimed just under 3,000 lives. The film depicts the New York-based events of the September 11 attacks primarily by using actual raw video footage taken from normal citizens who where there. The documentary is accompanied by an 18-minute documentary called I-Witness to 9/11, which features interviews with nine firsthand eyewitnesses who captured the video footage on camera.

Video File:
Type: 2 Disc Set, 700 MB Each
Format: .Avi [HDTV -XviD]
DVD Release Date: October 28, 2008
Run Time: 100 minutes


IMDB:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1312203/

Megaupload Part 1
Megaupload Part 2
Wingnutt
Thanks for the HQ links TheHatedMenace thumbsup.gif
czechmate
QUOTE(Vaiagra @ Oct 18 2009, 07:15 PM) *
I'm sorry, but I'll never feel guilty or sorry for water-boarding a few people to get hard intel while our enemy publicly resorts to beheading/shooting our citizens and posting videos online.

So what if ONE innocent inmate died in Abu Ghraib? Seriously. That's a very small price to pay. When American journalists or American-Iraqi care workers working FOR the Iraqi people (think Margaret Hassan) fall into the hands of "innocent" Iraqis (because many of the people behind the balaclava masks are not Sunni insurgents from other countries, but Iraqi nationals who hate the "invading crusader agenda") they always suffer a terrible, grisly fate.

You're part of the status quo, litha. I hope your liberal, self-laothing agenda works out for ya. Personally, I could care less about those people. Muslim terrorists hide behind woman and children -- and more often then not (esp. in Iraq and Afghanistan) the women and children are also the terrorists.

I'm sick of religious fanaticism, especially the Islamic kind.

I'm sick of American jingoism. Imagine 9/11 happening TWICE A WEEK for a couple of decades - that's what had been happening in other parts of the world using American weaponary and money, freely supplied by the CIA and others.
The fact is that George Wanker Bush and Dick(head) Cheney belong behind bars.
Blackwater and many of the "contractors" employed, come mainly from White Supremesist groups - and for them to be beheaded is poetic justice.
BTW - my daughter-in-law and her children were killed by poison gas, supplied to a dictator by the CIA.
Vaiagra
hey czechmate, first off I was truly saddened to read what you wrote about your daughter in law and her kids. that's despicable, callous and heartless. trust me, if most americans knew the extent of some of the foreign tragedies we've had are hands in in the past and today, there would be anarchy in the streets.

but..

i still can't see the parallel to terrorism. 9/11 types of attacks do NOT occur twice a week anywhere in the world. 3,000 people and an entire portion of a mega-city destroyed in less than two hours? granted, Iraqis bomb the hell out of each other and the death toll has far surpassed 9/11, African countries slaughter each other in the millions -- but to pin the blame on the CIA alone is only half of the solution (and half of the problem).

what about the indoctrinated tribal hatred in Africa? what about anti-Semetism and anti-West mentalities in the middle east.

you're saying in a sense that the people supplying the weapons are solely to blame. i agree with you that they are subhuman bastards out to make a profit, but where's the blame on the people who actually carry out the attacks? if the CIA, MI6, Mossad wouldn't fund these crazy suicidal maniacs they'd just give up their fight and lead normal lives? hell no, they'd find other sources.

you're wrong about blackwater by the way. all of the contractors there have a military background, but a white-supremacist background? where's the evidence? besides, not all of them are white to begin with. i worked with an ex-seal who was in one of those firms and they are not all animals.

i guess my point is that having a western government finance and arm a group of madmen is a problem, but so are the madmen.
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