QUOTE
The Koran is a lesson in the religious school of thought. The documentary takes you all around the world to different regions to show how people of the muslim faith interpret the Koran.
Watch
Full Version: The Koran
Watch
'hasnain' congratulations regarding your retirement from the 'Islam: What the West Needs to Know' thread. Now that you have some free time, I was wondering about your opinion regarding this posting. My curiosity stems from the dubious connection between the National Geographic channel and its owner, the infamous Rupert Murdoch; extreme pro Republican, Bush booster and main media cheerleader for their 'War on Terror'. I have found links critical of the documentary and would like your impressions. Thanks.
'Channel 4 Qur'an documentary disappoints Muslims'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics...ts-Muslims.html
'Interpreting the Koran' viewers feed back
http://ngccommunity.nationalgeographic.com...-the-koran.html
'Channel 4 Qur'an documentary disappoints Muslims'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics...ts-Muslims.html
'Interpreting the Koran' viewers feed back
http://ngccommunity.nationalgeographic.com...-the-koran.html
im extremely srry man, till now i havnt watch the vid cause megavideo was blocked n i thought just screw it. ill put my hotspot shield to view the vid. ill get back to u yeah.
and waa retirement. feel light headed though after allthose post!
and waa retirement. feel light headed though after allthose post!
the documentary was indeed interesting. we got this saying nowadays between the muslim communities. if people outisde the religion of islam tried to make a documentary, it would never be as succesfull interms of facts and the whole story in the documentary. it had good sides and the bad sides. people cant understand ones religion in a couple of hours - roughly. it would require far to much knowledge to talk about the quran. i mean to say, people have been wondering upon this book since centuries.
the thing which bothered me alot was that they showed the wahabis, talking about jihad, saying to kill. which is wrong. they have no life, and are going against everything that islam stands for. their interpretation is simply wrong and for me to talk about it would take alot of pages. they should atleast say that they are going against islam. another thing was that the documentary wasnt that wild in looking, finding and researching themselve on which interpretation is right. they havent looked in depth on why is it that shia intepret the quran the different way than the sunni, whabi and the sufis. they forgot to mention one of the main ingrediants, that we follow not only the prophets hadith and the quran but also the prophets household when interpreting the quran. they forgot to mention the famous figures from all the sides who reported the hadiths, that we use along when interpreting the quran. if i want to describe this documentary in words it would "intellectually lazy". one documentary which i recommend is "The Man Who Walked Across the World". i will post it as soon as possible. you compare this to that documantery n ill ask u ur opinion about it. ok.
another thing was that they showed the minorities and their views of islam and thats it, and which are mainly cultural related. if a person who sees a documentary on islam, a religion which he unheard of, what would he think of it after watching this. a bit dissapointed though!
if they wanted to make a documentary, they might aswell mix all the culture and the politics with it. the female genital mutilation, it is completely unaccapable in islam. like the man said, a harm to a womens body in any form is forbidden. this is where culture comes in, not the teaching of religion but a view of a particular society. now tell me - that does appropriately suites with the name of the documentary, THE QURAN. no! it did not include any sort of textual analysis, instead it relied on a handful of hard line mullahs to interpret islamic law. so this is biased. they should seek the truth and find it out themselves.
as for shia conflict. u read everything that people are so upset about. i dug these things up. http://www.shiatv.net/view_video.php?viewk...9760eea0875cdd1 http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/20.../religion.islam http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/28/islam.channel4 http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/jul/29/channel4.ofcom1
no need to explain further on this.
We should always be careful when we approach laws and interpretations from the Quran. it is said that the quran challenges others to even make a surah like its, not only that, but it challenges peoples intellect. nowadays muslim scholars/scientist are using scientific approches to examine the religion. one of the reseach they found that a person who memorizes verses from the quran, it increases its iq n intellect.
i was in syria this year for a very holy day in our shia calender. we had a little discussion among the young youth - mainly cousins and friends. one of them said something interesting. he said if u look at the muslims living in the modern countries mainly uk, america, canada n such (like most me n most of my family). u will find that the teaching and the way of life of these muslims (reffering to shias) are different. cause its a modern country n so a rule or the way of life would be just little different. on the other hand, if u look at the muslim countries, they are well.... not that modern compare to europe n america. people argue that its cause of the religion and they are simply wrong. it is all to do with politics and the culture in the way country is. how a government chooses to run its country has nothing which directly correlates to religion. islam is rising in a fresh new and inspiring way in the west. it has a uniqueness and it shows more true nature to this religion cause no culture boundries holds it. it really shows islam a way of life in its true form, one really sees the beauty of this religion really.
on the final note. i am not against people making documentaries on particular religion but atleast they should have the facts right. and as a viewer they should bring some new way on presenting or atleast an approach to the subject in the different way. it used the minority views of islam which a non muslim who would see it as the views of "mainstream Islam".
"The Qur'an says that it is revealed in plain language to be understood. Understanding is about interpreting words into thoughts and then into actions. The Qur'an also declares it uses similes and one wonders how they can be taken literaly".
ps. why are u interested on this ne wayz.
the thing which bothered me alot was that they showed the wahabis, talking about jihad, saying to kill. which is wrong. they have no life, and are going against everything that islam stands for. their interpretation is simply wrong and for me to talk about it would take alot of pages. they should atleast say that they are going against islam. another thing was that the documentary wasnt that wild in looking, finding and researching themselve on which interpretation is right. they havent looked in depth on why is it that shia intepret the quran the different way than the sunni, whabi and the sufis. they forgot to mention one of the main ingrediants, that we follow not only the prophets hadith and the quran but also the prophets household when interpreting the quran. they forgot to mention the famous figures from all the sides who reported the hadiths, that we use along when interpreting the quran. if i want to describe this documentary in words it would "intellectually lazy". one documentary which i recommend is "The Man Who Walked Across the World". i will post it as soon as possible. you compare this to that documantery n ill ask u ur opinion about it. ok.
another thing was that they showed the minorities and their views of islam and thats it, and which are mainly cultural related. if a person who sees a documentary on islam, a religion which he unheard of, what would he think of it after watching this. a bit dissapointed though!
if they wanted to make a documentary, they might aswell mix all the culture and the politics with it. the female genital mutilation, it is completely unaccapable in islam. like the man said, a harm to a womens body in any form is forbidden. this is where culture comes in, not the teaching of religion but a view of a particular society. now tell me - that does appropriately suites with the name of the documentary, THE QURAN. no! it did not include any sort of textual analysis, instead it relied on a handful of hard line mullahs to interpret islamic law. so this is biased. they should seek the truth and find it out themselves.
as for shia conflict. u read everything that people are so upset about. i dug these things up. http://www.shiatv.net/view_video.php?viewk...9760eea0875cdd1 http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/20.../religion.islam http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/28/islam.channel4 http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/jul/29/channel4.ofcom1
no need to explain further on this.
We should always be careful when we approach laws and interpretations from the Quran. it is said that the quran challenges others to even make a surah like its, not only that, but it challenges peoples intellect. nowadays muslim scholars/scientist are using scientific approches to examine the religion. one of the reseach they found that a person who memorizes verses from the quran, it increases its iq n intellect.
i was in syria this year for a very holy day in our shia calender. we had a little discussion among the young youth - mainly cousins and friends. one of them said something interesting. he said if u look at the muslims living in the modern countries mainly uk, america, canada n such (like most me n most of my family). u will find that the teaching and the way of life of these muslims (reffering to shias) are different. cause its a modern country n so a rule or the way of life would be just little different. on the other hand, if u look at the muslim countries, they are well.... not that modern compare to europe n america. people argue that its cause of the religion and they are simply wrong. it is all to do with politics and the culture in the way country is. how a government chooses to run its country has nothing which directly correlates to religion. islam is rising in a fresh new and inspiring way in the west. it has a uniqueness and it shows more true nature to this religion cause no culture boundries holds it. it really shows islam a way of life in its true form, one really sees the beauty of this religion really.
on the final note. i am not against people making documentaries on particular religion but atleast they should have the facts right. and as a viewer they should bring some new way on presenting or atleast an approach to the subject in the different way. it used the minority views of islam which a non muslim who would see it as the views of "mainstream Islam".
"The Qur'an says that it is revealed in plain language to be understood. Understanding is about interpreting words into thoughts and then into actions. The Qur'an also declares it uses similes and one wonders how they can be taken literaly".
ps. why are u interested on this ne wayz.
I am specifically interested in the validity of the central criticism..."Intentionally causing a rift within the Muslim community". Do you see this as valid point, and if so what exactly would the intention, motivation, or purpose of such an undermining be? I am certainly suspicious of Rupert Murdoch and his ulterior agendas but the actual producer, writer, director, Antony Thomas seems quite genuine in his intentions. I have fond memories of an earlier film of his 'Tank Man'.
http://antonythomas.co.uk/
Thanks for the time and effort, I do appreciate it. Thanks also for the additional info links, I will read those now.
P.S. The Man Who Walked Across the World (2007)
http://ipb.quicksilverscreen.com/index.php...rt=#entry795631
http://antonythomas.co.uk/
Thanks for the time and effort, I do appreciate it. Thanks also for the additional info links, I will read those now.
P.S. The Man Who Walked Across the World (2007)
http://ipb.quicksilverscreen.com/index.php...rt=#entry795631
QUOTE(hasnain @ Sep 8 2009, 01:33 AM) 
the documentary was indeed interesting. we got this saying nowadays between the muslim communities. if people outisde the religion of islam tried to make a documentary, it would never be as succesfull interms of facts and the whole story in the documentary. it had good sides and the bad sides. people cant understand ones religion in a couple of hours - roughly. it would require far to much knowledge to talk about the quran. i mean to say, people have been wondering upon this book since centuries.
the thing which bothered me alot was that they showed the wahabis, talking about jihad, saying to kill. which is wrong. they have no life, and are going against everything that islam stands for. their interpretation is simply wrong and for me to talk about it would take alot of pages. they should atleast say that they are going against islam. another thing was that the documentary wasnt that wild in looking, finding and researching themselve on which interpretation is right. they havent looked in depth on why is it that shia intepret the quran the different way than the sunni, whabi and the sufis. they forgot to mention one of the main ingrediants, that we follow not only the prophets hadith and the quran but also the prophets household when interpreting the quran. they forgot to mention the famous figures from all the sides who reported the hadiths, that we use along when interpreting the quran. if i want to describe this documentary in words it would "intellectually lazy". one documentary which i recommend is "The Man Who Walked Across the World". i will post it as soon as possible. you compare this to that documantery n ill ask u ur opinion about it. ok.
another thing was that they showed the minorities and their views of islam and thats it, and which are mainly cultural related. if a person who sees a documentary on islam, a religion which he unheard of, what would he think of it after watching this. a bit dissapointed though!
if they wanted to make a documentary, they might aswell mix all the culture and the politics with it. the female genital mutilation, it is completely unaccapable in islam. like the man said, a harm to a womens body in any form is forbidden. this is where culture comes in, not the teaching of religion but a view of a particular society. now tell me - that does appropriately suites with the name of the documentary, THE QURAN. no! it did not include any sort of textual analysis, instead it relied on a handful of hard line mullahs to interpret islamic law. so this is biased. they should seek the truth and find it out themselves.
as for shia conflict. u read everything that people are so upset about. i dug these things up. http://www.shiatv.net/view_video.php?viewk...9760eea0875cdd1 http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/20.../religion.islam http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/28/islam.channel4 http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/jul/29/channel4.ofcom1
no need to explain further on this.
We should always be careful when we approach laws and interpretations from the Quran. it is said that the quran challenges others to even make a surah like its, not only that, but it challenges peoples intellect. nowadays muslim scholars/scientist are using scientific approches to examine the religion. one of the reseach they found that a person who memorizes verses from the quran, it increases its iq n intellect.
i was in syria this year for a very holy day in our shia calender. we had a little discussion among the young youth - mainly cousins and friends. one of them said something interesting. he said if u look at the muslims living in the modern countries mainly uk, america, canada n such (like most me n most of my family). u will find that the teaching and the way of life of these muslims (reffering to shias) are different. cause its a modern country n so a rule or the way of life would be just little different. on the other hand, if u look at the muslim countries, they are well.... not that modern compare to europe n america. people argue that its cause of the religion and they are simply wrong. it is all to do with politics and the culture in the way country is. how a government chooses to run its country has nothing which directly correlates to religion. islam is rising in a fresh new and inspiring way in the west. it has a uniqueness and it shows more true nature to this religion cause no culture boundries holds it. it really shows islam a way of life in its true form, one really sees the beauty of this religion really.
on the final note. i am not against people making documentaries on particular religion but atleast they should have the facts right. and as a viewer they should bring some new way on presenting or atleast an approach to the subject in the different way. it used the minority views of islam which a non muslim who would see it as the views of "mainstream Islam".
"The Qur'an says that it is revealed in plain language to be understood. Understanding is about interpreting words into thoughts and then into actions. The Qur'an also declares it uses similes and one wonders how they can be taken literaly".
ps. why are u interested on this ne wayz.
the thing which bothered me alot was that they showed the wahabis, talking about jihad, saying to kill. which is wrong. they have no life, and are going against everything that islam stands for. their interpretation is simply wrong and for me to talk about it would take alot of pages. they should atleast say that they are going against islam. another thing was that the documentary wasnt that wild in looking, finding and researching themselve on which interpretation is right. they havent looked in depth on why is it that shia intepret the quran the different way than the sunni, whabi and the sufis. they forgot to mention one of the main ingrediants, that we follow not only the prophets hadith and the quran but also the prophets household when interpreting the quran. they forgot to mention the famous figures from all the sides who reported the hadiths, that we use along when interpreting the quran. if i want to describe this documentary in words it would "intellectually lazy". one documentary which i recommend is "The Man Who Walked Across the World". i will post it as soon as possible. you compare this to that documantery n ill ask u ur opinion about it. ok.
another thing was that they showed the minorities and their views of islam and thats it, and which are mainly cultural related. if a person who sees a documentary on islam, a religion which he unheard of, what would he think of it after watching this. a bit dissapointed though!
if they wanted to make a documentary, they might aswell mix all the culture and the politics with it. the female genital mutilation, it is completely unaccapable in islam. like the man said, a harm to a womens body in any form is forbidden. this is where culture comes in, not the teaching of religion but a view of a particular society. now tell me - that does appropriately suites with the name of the documentary, THE QURAN. no! it did not include any sort of textual analysis, instead it relied on a handful of hard line mullahs to interpret islamic law. so this is biased. they should seek the truth and find it out themselves.
as for shia conflict. u read everything that people are so upset about. i dug these things up. http://www.shiatv.net/view_video.php?viewk...9760eea0875cdd1 http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/20.../religion.islam http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/28/islam.channel4 http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/jul/29/channel4.ofcom1
no need to explain further on this.
We should always be careful when we approach laws and interpretations from the Quran. it is said that the quran challenges others to even make a surah like its, not only that, but it challenges peoples intellect. nowadays muslim scholars/scientist are using scientific approches to examine the religion. one of the reseach they found that a person who memorizes verses from the quran, it increases its iq n intellect.
i was in syria this year for a very holy day in our shia calender. we had a little discussion among the young youth - mainly cousins and friends. one of them said something interesting. he said if u look at the muslims living in the modern countries mainly uk, america, canada n such (like most me n most of my family). u will find that the teaching and the way of life of these muslims (reffering to shias) are different. cause its a modern country n so a rule or the way of life would be just little different. on the other hand, if u look at the muslim countries, they are well.... not that modern compare to europe n america. people argue that its cause of the religion and they are simply wrong. it is all to do with politics and the culture in the way country is. how a government chooses to run its country has nothing which directly correlates to religion. islam is rising in a fresh new and inspiring way in the west. it has a uniqueness and it shows more true nature to this religion cause no culture boundries holds it. it really shows islam a way of life in its true form, one really sees the beauty of this religion really.
on the final note. i am not against people making documentaries on particular religion but atleast they should have the facts right. and as a viewer they should bring some new way on presenting or atleast an approach to the subject in the different way. it used the minority views of islam which a non muslim who would see it as the views of "mainstream Islam".
"The Qur'an says that it is revealed in plain language to be understood. Understanding is about interpreting words into thoughts and then into actions. The Qur'an also declares it uses similes and one wonders how they can be taken literaly".
ps. why are u interested on this ne wayz.
1. A person memorizing versus from the Quran can increase his/her IQ? Proof?
2. So you're not against someone making a documentary about a particular religion, but you insist they get the facts straight? Why is it that instead of accepting (and dealing with) the fact that there is a minority, a pretty big minority, that cherry picks through the Quran - you dismiss the problem entirely and blame the filmmakers?
3. "Islam is rising in a fresh new and inspiring way in the west" - if you're referring to interfaith dialogue with Christians and Jews, I'll give you that.
4. Here's an excerpt from your favorite site, Wikipedia, regarding religion in Saudi Arabia:
Due to the legal framework of the country, which does not provide legal protection for freedom of religion, the public practice of non-Muslim religions is prohibited. Indeed, the Government enforces a strict and conservative version of Sunni Islam. Muslims who do not follow the official interpretation, can face severe repercussions at the hands of Mutawwa'in (religious police).
For this reason, Saudi culture lacks the diversity of religious expression, buildings, annual festivals and public events that is seen in countries where religious freedom is permitted.[40] Christianity in Saudi Arabia faces persecution.
Politics & culture = religion. They feed on each other.
You know.. for what it's worth.. I don't mean to come off as an Islamophobic jerk. I respect your right to choose any faith, worship any God or follow any creed. That's your call.
But WHAT I WOULDN'T GIVE in this post 9/11 world for a generation of proud young Muslims to truly stand up and fight the enemies within your religion, not only for our sake, but for your sake as well. And to understand why you're taking a stand against them. And to declare it bravely and vocally for all the world to hear.
I would love to live in a world where Islam returns to be the beacon of light it used to be, where the word terrorism is a thing of the past, where Muslim men treat Muslim women with the dignity and respect they deserve, where violence is a "non-Muslim" answer to a problem, where true humility exists in the heart of each and every true believer, where Muslims & Christians & Jews celebrate holidays together, build strong bonds of mutual respect and friendship..
It's in your hands, but at the same time, you have to fight for it. You are the people that are being called upon, now more than ever, to stand up and defend your faith against all the Osama's, Al-Zawahiri's, the Nasrallah's and the Ahmadinejads of the world.
But WHAT I WOULDN'T GIVE in this post 9/11 world for a generation of proud young Muslims to truly stand up and fight the enemies within your religion, not only for our sake, but for your sake as well. And to understand why you're taking a stand against them. And to declare it bravely and vocally for all the world to hear.
I would love to live in a world where Islam returns to be the beacon of light it used to be, where the word terrorism is a thing of the past, where Muslim men treat Muslim women with the dignity and respect they deserve, where violence is a "non-Muslim" answer to a problem, where true humility exists in the heart of each and every true believer, where Muslims & Christians & Jews celebrate holidays together, build strong bonds of mutual respect and friendship..
It's in your hands, but at the same time, you have to fight for it. You are the people that are being called upon, now more than ever, to stand up and defend your faith against all the Osama's, Al-Zawahiri's, the Nasrallah's and the Ahmadinejads of the world.
Did you mean V*****? btw you overlooked your usual inclusion of ultra-virtuoso attestations as a shiney fine erectile emissary for/of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
1 - u need to read this first http://scholarspen.blogspot.com/2005/12/hu...-al-nibras.html i also forgot to add the health impacts the quran has. u will find alot of articles relating to it. these are among the few and the article i read in the weekend magzine here in dubai. i am searching for a similar article over the internet.
http://www.kaheel7.com/eng/index.php/secre...f-quran-healing http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_56.html
http://islamic-beliefs.suite101.com/articl...ligent_believer
2. again culture is the driving force behind the minorities. the mainstream sect beliefs, along with its scholars, disapprove witht the minorities practices but their is a freedom given to them. i blamed the filmaker cause their was no need to show those minorities and say these are shias and are practicing the religion of islam. it would show as a mainstream (true) belief of the sect! and i am right, cause u would be commenting on this if u knew the differences.
statements like these were biased and not full fact on
"Mr al-Khoei also said that the documentary contained factual errors.
He said: "One of the things it claimed was that Shias have a hierarchy of priesthood and that this is against the Qur'an. But in all Muslim states, most of which are Sunni majority, they have a hierarchy of religious scholars. This is a very clear anti-Shia bias".
""The God the Sunni worship may not be described in human language, nor represented in any art form, for that would be blasphemous. Yet sometimes the human heart yearns for more. For a faith you can touch and feel, for drama, for music, for ceremony, for great stories of sacrifice, pain, martyrdom and salvation and for someone to pray to who has human form Shia Islam answers these needs ... But the Qur'an makes it so clear that your prayer should only be directed to God." do i need to emphasize on this for u as on what things are wrong when the narrator said this.
3. not only dialogue with christians and jews but i was mainly talking about the way of life of the young shia muslims. i have talked to many elders and they say that they got really into the religion when they were older, getting more spirutual knowledge etc. but nowadays the young, without being force, automatically get attracted to the religion. there is this love that is happening and the understandng of the religion is more. this is cause of many things, one of them is due to english lectures rather than urdu, iranian or arabic lectures. shia muslim in the west nd i myself had alot of difficulty understanding the lectures when spoken in urdu or sometimes punjabi language. its those big nd fancy words in urdu that i dont understand. english lectures are perfect as they are more understandable and u get a clear picture on what the molvi is saying - word by word. i have seen more youths in the mosque then people who are 20 n older.
4. do i need to remind u that im a shia. do i need to tell why we have our beliefs and why we believe their (saudis) religious teaching is wrong. on the contrary, the saudi government is following wahabees not sunni. nowhere in the quran and no where it is the true teaching of islam. infact u can go to the government and tell them a hadith of the prophet saying that "other religions are always allowed to practice their faith in the lands. why would god says to respect all faiths and religion nomatter how much further they are from the religion of islam. respect and freedom is given, the government is not following it. the people of their culture do not like it so thats why they are making a big political agenda on this. have u heard what they are doing against shias in saudi. arent we the part of the muslim faith?
regarding ur second post. my friend, u completly misunderstood this religion entirely. we are fighting the extremist but the problem is, if america is not able to catch these assholes, what chance do u think the muslim civilians have. we are fighting through media, spreading the message to these people on what they do is wrong. the world doesnt hear it cause the top news reporters are busy reporting other stuff.
u also completly misunderstood the women in islam. please look in here http://www.islamfortoday.com/women.htm frankly these are the types of misconceptions and skepticism i dont like. i now i cant blame u - probably the media, cause thats what u see all the time, terrorist, saudi human rights, women treated badly by her husband, internet propoganda - so u automaticly thing that this is the true religion and its not. i sincerely hope that u may have a right image of islam not the wrong one.
http://www.kaheel7.com/eng/index.php/secre...f-quran-healing http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_56.html
http://islamic-beliefs.suite101.com/articl...ligent_believer
2. again culture is the driving force behind the minorities. the mainstream sect beliefs, along with its scholars, disapprove witht the minorities practices but their is a freedom given to them. i blamed the filmaker cause their was no need to show those minorities and say these are shias and are practicing the religion of islam. it would show as a mainstream (true) belief of the sect! and i am right, cause u would be commenting on this if u knew the differences.
statements like these were biased and not full fact on
"Mr al-Khoei also said that the documentary contained factual errors.
He said: "One of the things it claimed was that Shias have a hierarchy of priesthood and that this is against the Qur'an. But in all Muslim states, most of which are Sunni majority, they have a hierarchy of religious scholars. This is a very clear anti-Shia bias".
""The God the Sunni worship may not be described in human language, nor represented in any art form, for that would be blasphemous. Yet sometimes the human heart yearns for more. For a faith you can touch and feel, for drama, for music, for ceremony, for great stories of sacrifice, pain, martyrdom and salvation and for someone to pray to who has human form Shia Islam answers these needs ... But the Qur'an makes it so clear that your prayer should only be directed to God." do i need to emphasize on this for u as on what things are wrong when the narrator said this.
3. not only dialogue with christians and jews but i was mainly talking about the way of life of the young shia muslims. i have talked to many elders and they say that they got really into the religion when they were older, getting more spirutual knowledge etc. but nowadays the young, without being force, automatically get attracted to the religion. there is this love that is happening and the understandng of the religion is more. this is cause of many things, one of them is due to english lectures rather than urdu, iranian or arabic lectures. shia muslim in the west nd i myself had alot of difficulty understanding the lectures when spoken in urdu or sometimes punjabi language. its those big nd fancy words in urdu that i dont understand. english lectures are perfect as they are more understandable and u get a clear picture on what the molvi is saying - word by word. i have seen more youths in the mosque then people who are 20 n older.
4. do i need to remind u that im a shia. do i need to tell why we have our beliefs and why we believe their (saudis) religious teaching is wrong. on the contrary, the saudi government is following wahabees not sunni. nowhere in the quran and no where it is the true teaching of islam. infact u can go to the government and tell them a hadith of the prophet saying that "other religions are always allowed to practice their faith in the lands. why would god says to respect all faiths and religion nomatter how much further they are from the religion of islam. respect and freedom is given, the government is not following it. the people of their culture do not like it so thats why they are making a big political agenda on this. have u heard what they are doing against shias in saudi. arent we the part of the muslim faith?
regarding ur second post. my friend, u completly misunderstood this religion entirely. we are fighting the extremist but the problem is, if america is not able to catch these assholes, what chance do u think the muslim civilians have. we are fighting through media, spreading the message to these people on what they do is wrong. the world doesnt hear it cause the top news reporters are busy reporting other stuff.
u also completly misunderstood the women in islam. please look in here http://www.islamfortoday.com/women.htm frankly these are the types of misconceptions and skepticism i dont like. i now i cant blame u - probably the media, cause thats what u see all the time, terrorist, saudi human rights, women treated badly by her husband, internet propoganda - so u automaticly thing that this is the true religion and its not. i sincerely hope that u may have a right image of islam not the wrong one.
i couldnt watch it all.. I raged after 30 min..
Another bash Islam documentary I wouldn’t expect less from natgeo
Muhammad's (SAW)Farewell Sermon atop Mount Arafat after his Last Pilgrimage
"i have left among you two matters by holding fast to which, you shall never be misguided: the Book of Allah and the Sunna of His Prophet"
You can’t interpret one without the other
Muhammad's (SAW)Farewell Sermon atop Mount Arafat after his Last Pilgrimage
"i have left among you two matters by holding fast to which, you shall never be misguided: the Book of Allah and the Sunna of His Prophet"
You can’t interpret one without the other
It's like talking to a wall. You people will never change.
QUOTE(bklny @ Sep 9 2009, 07:24 AM)
Another bash Islam documentary I wouldn’t expect less from natgeo
Muhammad's (SAW)Farewell Sermon atop Mount Arafat after his Last Pilgrimage
"i have left among you two matters by holding fast to which, you shall never be misguided: the Book of Allah and the Sunna of His Prophet"
You can’t interpret one without the other
Muhammad's (SAW)Farewell Sermon atop Mount Arafat after his Last Pilgrimage
"i have left among you two matters by holding fast to which, you shall never be misguided: the Book of Allah and the Sunna of His Prophet"
You can’t interpret one without the other
And yet even with both none of you can agree on what they say.
A quick example is Moes last sermon,you say he said that but it's not agreed upon is it bklny.
QUOTE
Zaid bin Arqam r.a., narrated that the messenger of Allah s.a.a.w. said: "Indeed, I am leaving among you, that which if you hold fast to them, you shall not be misguided after me. One of then is greater than the other: (First is) The book of Allah is a rope extended from the sky to the earth, and (the second is) my family, the people of my house (ahlul bait), and they shall not split until they meet me at the hawd, so look at how you deal with them after me." (Sahih).
If people dislike so called Islam bashing then you should all work together to stop it being so damn easy.
You could start by trying to unite your various sects,but that'll never happen because you all think that book says different things.
skamp, who told u or where did u got the idea that the sect do not get along with each other. since centuries shia n sunni are united. we are brothers. yes they are small little things that we differ from each other but the core is the same. i have both sunni nd shia friends (mostly sunni), no sunni will say shia this nd that nd no shia will talk about their brothers in that way. if they do, they are simply ignorant.
we only stand against the extremist who are ruining the name of islam. hence the misunderstanding that u have is all because of them.
ps. skamp, the phrase BKLNY said might be misunderstood by him. but what he was saying that the prophet said, "he leaves two things, 1st the quran and 2nd ahlul bait". this is well known by sunni nd shia and accepted as a fact.
we only stand against the extremist who are ruining the name of islam. hence the misunderstanding that u have is all because of them.
ps. skamp, the phrase BKLNY said might be misunderstood by him. but what he was saying that the prophet said, "he leaves two things, 1st the quran and 2nd ahlul bait". this is well known by sunni nd shia and accepted as a fact.
QUOTE(smarrie @ Sep 8 2009, 11:16 AM)
Did you mean V*****? btw you overlooked your usual inclusion of ultra-virtuoso attestations as a shiney fine erectile emissary for/of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
LOL. How can anyone function being THIS much of an asshole? Not very well I bet, as evidenced by his legions of supporters here on the forums.
I do however have supporters Smars, which I know you hate because you bring it up constantly. You also are resentful of defenders in general, because you were either denied defense or are jealous that someone else has the courage to defend. Perhaps both. Regardless, your activity here is clearly reactionary. Forgive us if we go back to ignoring you. You would feel a lot better about yourself if you stopped throwing feces.
Hasnain... anyone who has the BIG answer before they even fully understand the question is wrong by default. You know exactly what deity created the universe... you know exactly what his doctrine is... and those are some MASSIVE assumptions based on no observable evidence... and you picked the one true god out of an ocean of 2500 gods.... and a religion out of tens of thousands.... which just happened to be a religion/god that lived close to home.... so forgive us if we view your certainty with a certain degree of skepticism.
QUOTE
You know.. for what it's worth.. I don't mean to come off as an Islamophobic jerk. I respect your right to choose any faith, worship any God or follow any creed. That's your call.
But WHAT I WOULDN'T GIVE in this post 9/11 world for a generation of proud young Muslims to truly stand up and fight the enemies within your religion, not only for our sake, but for your sake as well. And to understand why you're taking a stand against them. And to declare it bravely and vocally for all the world to hear.
I would love to live in a world where Islam returns to be the beacon of light it used to be, where the word terrorism is a thing of the past, where Muslim men treat Muslim women with the dignity and respect they deserve, where violence is a "non-Muslim" answer to a problem, where true humility exists in the heart of each and every true believer, where Muslims & Christians & Jews celebrate holidays together, build strong bonds of mutual respect and friendship..
It's in your hands, but at the same time, you have to fight for it. You are the people that are being called upon, now more than ever, to stand up and defend your faith against all the Osama's, Al-Zawahiri's, the Nasrallah's and the Ahmadinejads of the world.
But WHAT I WOULDN'T GIVE in this post 9/11 world for a generation of proud young Muslims to truly stand up and fight the enemies within your religion, not only for our sake, but for your sake as well. And to understand why you're taking a stand against them. And to declare it bravely and vocally for all the world to hear.
I would love to live in a world where Islam returns to be the beacon of light it used to be, where the word terrorism is a thing of the past, where Muslim men treat Muslim women with the dignity and respect they deserve, where violence is a "non-Muslim" answer to a problem, where true humility exists in the heart of each and every true believer, where Muslims & Christians & Jews celebrate holidays together, build strong bonds of mutual respect and friendship..
It's in your hands, but at the same time, you have to fight for it. You are the people that are being called upon, now more than ever, to stand up and defend your faith against all the Osama's, Al-Zawahiri's, the Nasrallah's and the Ahmadinejads of the world.
This is a brilliant post, and is clear evidence that you are a completely cool person V. A valuable perspective for both believers and non-believers.
... and it must be said that I am constantly surprised at how amazing the thinkers on these boards can be. Believers and non-believers included. The only real bond that we all have here on these boards if the fact that we are all pirates (yarrrr).... so you might expect a more-than-average amount of trolls.... but the opposite is true. More often than not the boards are full of interesting conversation.
Obviously we are not all going to get along... but I like to take my ying with a little yang anyways.
QUOTE(Vaiagra @ Sep 8 2009, 11:13 AM)
You know.. for what it's worth.. I don't mean to come off as an Islamophobic jerk. I respect your right to choose any faith, worship any God or follow any creed. That's your call.
But WHAT I WOULDN'T GIVE in this post 9/11 world for a generation of proud young Muslims to truly stand up and fight the enemies within your religion, not only for our sake, but for your sake as well. And to understand why you're taking a stand against them. And to declare it bravely and vocally for all the world to hear.
I would love to live in a world where Islam returns to be the beacon of light it used to be, where the word terrorism is a thing of the past, where Muslim men treat Muslim women with the dignity and respect they deserve, where violence is a "non-Muslim" answer to a problem, where true humility exists in the heart of each and every true believer, where Muslims & Christians & Jews celebrate holidays together, build strong bonds of mutual respect and friendship..
It's in your hands, but at the same time, you have to fight for it. You are the people that are being called upon, now more than ever, to stand up and defend your faith against all the Osama's, Al-Zawahiri's, the Nasrallah's and the Ahmadinejads of the world.
But WHAT I WOULDN'T GIVE in this post 9/11 world for a generation of proud young Muslims to truly stand up and fight the enemies within your religion, not only for our sake, but for your sake as well. And to understand why you're taking a stand against them. And to declare it bravely and vocally for all the world to hear.
I would love to live in a world where Islam returns to be the beacon of light it used to be, where the word terrorism is a thing of the past, where Muslim men treat Muslim women with the dignity and respect they deserve, where violence is a "non-Muslim" answer to a problem, where true humility exists in the heart of each and every true believer, where Muslims & Christians & Jews celebrate holidays together, build strong bonds of mutual respect and friendship..
It's in your hands, but at the same time, you have to fight for it. You are the people that are being called upon, now more than ever, to stand up and defend your faith against all the Osama's, Al-Zawahiri's, the Nasrallah's and the Ahmadinejads of the world.
i nearly forgot to reply to u. good question though and u have the right to claim it. for ur first statement. we are doing everything to kick ass "enemies within our religion" litterally. man have u seen the Pakistani army, nd what they are doing lol, kicking the al qaeda ass lol. ull be amazed!.
every now and than, if u have islamic channel u will hear some guy giving a speach to stand against the extremist and warning them on their action which are unjust and unislamic. we are making lots of voice but the major news channels dont cover it much. although u will find many independent news articles on it.
and as for muslim men treating women with dignity and respect they deserve statement u made - u have the right to say it although u r wrong but im not going to blame u - yes they are unfortunately men like that in the world nd who call themselve muslims and the government to back it. but if u read articles relating right of women in islam over the internet, ull get the basic idea. these peoples are animals who refuse the rights given by islam to women.
muslim have alot of dialogues with Christians and jews especially shia muslims. they are all consider brothers. we have already made friends and a mutual friendship among the jews and Christians. every now and than i go to the church where the priest and the muslim priest talk about jesus and exchanging religious understanding and life as whole. its wonderful.
i completely agree when u say "it is in our hand to fight the enemies within". our children's should learn and defend themselves and their rights.
QUOTE(hasnain @ Sep 10 2009, 11:12 PM)
skamp, who told u or where did u got the idea that the sect do not get along with each other. since centuries shia n sunni are united. we are brothers. yes they are small little things that we differ from each other but the core is the same. i have both sunni nd shia friends (mostly sunni), no sunni will say shia this nd that nd no shia will talk about their brothers in that way. if they do, they are simply ignorant.
we only stand against the extremist who are ruining the name of islam. hence the misunderstanding that u have is all because of them.
ps. skamp, the phrase BKLNY said might be misunderstood by him. but what he was saying that the prophet said, "he leaves two things, 1st the quran and 2nd ahlul bait". this is well known by sunni nd shia and accepted as a fact.
we only stand against the extremist who are ruining the name of islam. hence the misunderstanding that u have is all because of them.
ps. skamp, the phrase BKLNY said might be misunderstood by him. but what he was saying that the prophet said, "he leaves two things, 1st the quran and 2nd ahlul bait". this is well known by sunni nd shia and accepted as a fact.
Yes, so united that they (Sunni, Shia) are blowing each others Mosques and shrines up, you may feel you are an Ummah Hasnain but the evidence says you are not. Not to mention Sunni/Salafist persecution of Sufi's, persecution of Ahmadiyya in Pakistan etc... All are indicators that the Rosy Utopia of Islamic cosiness you present is patently false. You are all divided on schools of thought and this then turns into violence whether you like to admit it or not.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1Y1-104643365.html
The same used to happen within Christianity, but a little thing called the age of reason and enlightenment changed all that.
Imagine the furor if Non-Muslims were conducting these bombing of Mosques etc.., absolute pandemonium worldwide! If a few cartoons can result in riots, murders and burnt buildings, a mosque destroyed by a non-muslim would erupt into world war three. Luckily for us this is just denominational barbarity within their own religion.
As a Muslim on MPACUK stated following the Channel four Doc The Koran:
QUOTE
Rashid:
What do you expect from non-Muslims. They report what they get from the Muslim world. One side Muslims are claiming Islam to be a religion of peace while simultaneously other Muslims are equaly justifying it to murder people. WHY SHOULD NON-MUSLIMS HAVE TO MAKE UP FOR OUR INABILITIES. These contradictions might be put out there by The western media but they are generated by Muslims.
WE HAVE TO GET OUR HOUSE IN ORDER BEFORE WE EXPECT NONMUSLIMS TO KEEP UP.
The Quran is not ambigious, in reality it has been made ambigious by MUSLIMS,
we can not open our mouth or put pen to paper without attacking another Muslim or group even if they are only slightly skewed from our own personal view of perfection.
It is time for Muslims to work together no matter how big or small there differences are. because for far to long we have been divided into bitesize pieces.
What do you expect from non-Muslims. They report what they get from the Muslim world. One side Muslims are claiming Islam to be a religion of peace while simultaneously other Muslims are equaly justifying it to murder people. WHY SHOULD NON-MUSLIMS HAVE TO MAKE UP FOR OUR INABILITIES. These contradictions might be put out there by The western media but they are generated by Muslims.
WE HAVE TO GET OUR HOUSE IN ORDER BEFORE WE EXPECT NONMUSLIMS TO KEEP UP.
The Quran is not ambigious, in reality it has been made ambigious by MUSLIMS,
we can not open our mouth or put pen to paper without attacking another Muslim or group even if they are only slightly skewed from our own personal view of perfection.
It is time for Muslims to work together no matter how big or small there differences are. because for far to long we have been divided into bitesize pieces.
Divided into bitesize pieces, (my emphasis added).
QUOTE
003.103
YUSUFALI: And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you: That ye may be guided
YUSUFALI: And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you: That ye may be guided
The so called Ummah still haven't attained this central tenent, then again, this bronze age text which is meant to be unambiguous clearly isn't.
The documentary was about the differing beliefs in Islam and how those beliefs arise through different interpretations of the Koran. For every extreme interpretation it was followed by a more moderate interpretation. For eg. the female genital mutilation, was followed by the British Muslim saying it was more an African practise and had no basis in Islam, the African scholars however use the Koran to justify it.
This is not a strict African practise though, in Britain an estimated 500 girls a year are put through this barbarity.
http://www.fgmnetwork.org/gonews.php?subac...amp;ucat=1&
Still this is the problem with religion it makes huge claims and fulfills non.
"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion. "
P.S. the root cause for these violent conflicts is also based on an occupation's forceful back-up of corporate colonialism....'greed has exceeded everyone's morality'...along with the ever increasing death toll tallies.
QUOTE(smarrie @ Sep 12 2009, 11:07 AM)
P.S. the root cause for these violent conflicts is also based on an occupation's forceful back-up of corporate colonialism....'greed has exceeded everyone's morality'...along with the ever increasing death toll tallies.
The cause was exactly what before the so called "occupation"?
mark8
on the contrary, shias are not blowing others mosque up. its a very bold statement to make. i ask u again, "who are the people who blows shia mosque nd our shrines up".
u fail to understand who are these people my friend. wahabis nd the sunni extremist are mosttly the one behind all of this aka ignorant people!
have u ever wondered, that they are division in this religion, one is attacking another, while the other is doing nothing. the one who is gettin attacked and does not fight back in rage and vengence. one does only say that these people are going the wrong way and god wil punish them heavily. Imam husan (a.s) was known to fight with his pen (kalam). and this is the greatest way of fighting and argueing to put a problem to death without any mean of being physical. u may find alot of article on his letter to the caliphate when that caliphate wanted to wage a war and read the power of kalam and how he solved the propblem. have u ever thought so many people going different ways, i should check myself why is that. which one is right or atleast nearly right according to the book. which one is more rational than the others, which one makes more sense etc.
the documentary was biased against shias. that is what i meant. have u even picked up a book of shia and read to see if we are going the other way or EVER did.
if u ever meet a muslim, and ask him what religion he is from. by god he will reply i am a muslim (no shia, no sunni etc). we are all aware of the verse from the quran where god gives us a warning "not to be divided". where do u think the division comes from. have read and studied the text of shias that we were never divided. if a person follows another belief or creates a belief making a sect out of it, u may tell him this verse from the quran.
ps. in islam, it is well known that a person can be good without religion. we give a baby and kids a word (called masoom) meaning sinless. god have already planted a seed in a new born so he can be aware of what is right and wrong thus this where the morals come in. study the quran again!
on the contrary, shias are not blowing others mosque up. its a very bold statement to make. i ask u again, "who are the people who blows shia mosque nd our shrines up".
u fail to understand who are these people my friend. wahabis nd the sunni extremist are mosttly the one behind all of this aka ignorant people!
have u ever wondered, that they are division in this religion, one is attacking another, while the other is doing nothing. the one who is gettin attacked and does not fight back in rage and vengence. one does only say that these people are going the wrong way and god wil punish them heavily. Imam husan (a.s) was known to fight with his pen (kalam). and this is the greatest way of fighting and argueing to put a problem to death without any mean of being physical. u may find alot of article on his letter to the caliphate when that caliphate wanted to wage a war and read the power of kalam and how he solved the propblem. have u ever thought so many people going different ways, i should check myself why is that. which one is right or atleast nearly right according to the book. which one is more rational than the others, which one makes more sense etc.
the documentary was biased against shias. that is what i meant. have u even picked up a book of shia and read to see if we are going the other way or EVER did.
if u ever meet a muslim, and ask him what religion he is from. by god he will reply i am a muslim (no shia, no sunni etc). we are all aware of the verse from the quran where god gives us a warning "not to be divided". where do u think the division comes from. have read and studied the text of shias that we were never divided. if a person follows another belief or creates a belief making a sect out of it, u may tell him this verse from the quran.
ps. in islam, it is well known that a person can be good without religion. we give a baby and kids a word (called masoom) meaning sinless. god have already planted a seed in a new born so he can be aware of what is right and wrong thus this where the morals come in. study the quran again!
'hasnain' date='Sep 12 2009, 02:56 PM' post='799622
mark8
on the contrary, shias are not blowing others mosque up. its a very bold statement to make. i ask u again, "who are the people who blows shia mosque nd our shrines up".
So you didn't read the AP story I posted? I will duplicate it here for you in full, it is a story of Shiite militants blowing up a Sunni Mosque in retaliation for a suicide attack on a Shia shrine.
You may call them ignorant, I wil totally agree with you there, but it is not just Wahabis and Sunnis doing the bombing, Shia have their ignoramuses too.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1Y1-104643365.html
u fail to understand who are these people my friend. wahabis nd the sunni extremist are mosttly the one behind all of this aka ignorant people!
Clearly it isn't just Wahabis and Sunnis, you have divisions within your religion, they can and do express it with violence.
have u ever wondered, that they are division in this religion, one is attacking another, while the other is doing nothing.
You may be doing nothing Hasnain but other Shia's do, as shown by the AP story above.
the one who is gettin attacked and does not fight back in rage and vengence. one does only say that these people are going the wrong way and god wil punish them heavily. Imam husan (a.s) was known to fight with his pen (kalam). and this is the greatest way of fighting and argueing to put a problem to death without any mean of being physical. u may find alot of article on his letter to the caliphate when that caliphate wanted to wage a war and read the power of kalam and how he solved the propblem. have u ever thought so many people going different ways, i should check myself why is that. which one is right or atleast nearly right according to the book. which one is more rational than the others, which one makes more sense etc.
You cannot prove which one is right other than appealing to Scholars and scripture AKA Circular reasoning, they in turn appeal to there's. It's a merry-go-round which never stops. What is clear is, although the Quran is claimed by Muslims to be the unambiguous, innerrant word of their god it clearly isn't so. If it was so straightforward, these multiple interpretations and sects wouldn't be around, there would be ONE ummah and no division.
the documentary was biased against shias. that is what i meant. have u even picked up a book of shia and read to see if we are going the other way or EVER did.
I can see you don't like the bit about having to go through an intermediary, but to label the whole doc... rubbish on that one point seems disingenous to its overall feel and content, which in retrospect was pretty fair and balanced.
if u ever meet a muslim, and ask him what religion he is from. by god he will reply i am a muslim (no shia, no sunni etc). we are all aware of the verse from the quran where god gives us a warning "not to be divided". where do u think the division comes from. have read and studied the text of shias that we were never divided. if a person follows another belief or creates a belief making a sect out of it, u may tell him this verse from the quran.
From a bronze age book that makes claims that it cannot live up to, being used by multiple faiths to justify their own faith based positions, all very silly when looked through non-dogmatic eyes.
ps. in islam, it is well known that a person can be good without religion. we give a baby and kids a word (called masoom) meaning sinless. god have already planted a seed in a new born so he can be aware of what is right and wrong thus this where the morals come in. study the quran again!
Then what need of religion then?
mark8
on the contrary, shias are not blowing others mosque up. its a very bold statement to make. i ask u again, "who are the people who blows shia mosque nd our shrines up".
So you didn't read the AP story I posted? I will duplicate it here for you in full, it is a story of Shiite militants blowing up a Sunni Mosque in retaliation for a suicide attack on a Shia shrine.
You may call them ignorant, I wil totally agree with you there, but it is not just Wahabis and Sunnis doing the bombing, Shia have their ignoramuses too.
QUOTE
Shiite Militants Bomb Sunni Mosque
Suspected Shiite militants bombed a Sunni mosque in southern Iraq on Sunday in apparent retaliation for a suicide attack the day before against a Shiite shrine in the same city that killed 11 people, police said.
The explosives blew a hole in the minaret of the Sunni mosque in Haswa, a predominantly Shiite city 30 miles south of Baghdad, but the mosque was empty and no casualties were reported.
The attack came a day after a man driving a truck laden with explosives and boxes of new shoes struck a Shiite mosque in Haswa, destroying nearby stores as well as part of the shrine
Suspected Shiite militants bombed a Sunni mosque in southern Iraq on Sunday in apparent retaliation for a suicide attack the day before against a Shiite shrine in the same city that killed 11 people, police said.
The explosives blew a hole in the minaret of the Sunni mosque in Haswa, a predominantly Shiite city 30 miles south of Baghdad, but the mosque was empty and no casualties were reported.
The attack came a day after a man driving a truck laden with explosives and boxes of new shoes struck a Shiite mosque in Haswa, destroying nearby stores as well as part of the shrine
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1Y1-104643365.html
u fail to understand who are these people my friend. wahabis nd the sunni extremist are mosttly the one behind all of this aka ignorant people!
Clearly it isn't just Wahabis and Sunnis, you have divisions within your religion, they can and do express it with violence.
have u ever wondered, that they are division in this religion, one is attacking another, while the other is doing nothing.
You may be doing nothing Hasnain but other Shia's do, as shown by the AP story above.
the one who is gettin attacked and does not fight back in rage and vengence. one does only say that these people are going the wrong way and god wil punish them heavily. Imam husan (a.s) was known to fight with his pen (kalam). and this is the greatest way of fighting and argueing to put a problem to death without any mean of being physical. u may find alot of article on his letter to the caliphate when that caliphate wanted to wage a war and read the power of kalam and how he solved the propblem. have u ever thought so many people going different ways, i should check myself why is that. which one is right or atleast nearly right according to the book. which one is more rational than the others, which one makes more sense etc.
You cannot prove which one is right other than appealing to Scholars and scripture AKA Circular reasoning, they in turn appeal to there's. It's a merry-go-round which never stops. What is clear is, although the Quran is claimed by Muslims to be the unambiguous, innerrant word of their god it clearly isn't so. If it was so straightforward, these multiple interpretations and sects wouldn't be around, there would be ONE ummah and no division.
the documentary was biased against shias. that is what i meant. have u even picked up a book of shia and read to see if we are going the other way or EVER did.
I can see you don't like the bit about having to go through an intermediary, but to label the whole doc... rubbish on that one point seems disingenous to its overall feel and content, which in retrospect was pretty fair and balanced.
if u ever meet a muslim, and ask him what religion he is from. by god he will reply i am a muslim (no shia, no sunni etc). we are all aware of the verse from the quran where god gives us a warning "not to be divided". where do u think the division comes from. have read and studied the text of shias that we were never divided. if a person follows another belief or creates a belief making a sect out of it, u may tell him this verse from the quran.
From a bronze age book that makes claims that it cannot live up to, being used by multiple faiths to justify their own faith based positions, all very silly when looked through non-dogmatic eyes.
ps. in islam, it is well known that a person can be good without religion. we give a baby and kids a word (called masoom) meaning sinless. god have already planted a seed in a new born so he can be aware of what is right and wrong thus this where the morals come in. study the quran again!
Then what need of religion then?
QUOTE(mark8 @ Sep 12 2009, 04:38 AM)
The cause was exactly what before the so called "occupation"?
The post 9/11 media induced anschauung 'Islamists as a threat' transformed our prejudicial Western pre-occupation and legitimized a global resource grab in the guise of a "war on terror'. Christopher Hitchens (Murdoch minion), likewise, began his goose-stepping Islamofascist rants during this same hangover...aka 'rabid colonialist corporate crusader' (John Pilger). We no longer have an ability to differentiate personal opinion from propaganda...we regurgitate spoon fed buzz words and commemorate this assumed endemic brilliance by having our heads bronzed as keepsakes (immutable mindlessness).
violence are for the week and uneducated. i dont get u when u talk about circular reasoning. u well know that the true teaching of islam is against violence but still people point at this religion saying the violence is cause of this religion. if u see people causing chaos n violence in the name of god, would you A think its religion teaches it, or B curse these people and tell them this is not what ur religion teaches and call these people unislamic.
as for shias in iraq. couple weeks ago there was this doc on al jazeera or bbc (cant remember). which should the conflict in iraq as the aftermath of the war. i know people who have been to iraq last year and the stories they told me are really sad n heart upseting. its a universal custom, when a person travels to another country, while coming back he would bring something for the love ones. in iraq, its a different story. even the cloth u wear would embaress u infront of the people, by looking at their condition. its said, that if u buy a garment their, just give it to the poor. poverty their is so struck. and the conflict between sunni and shia is unspeakable. their simply brainwashed. i want to tell the stories but u might intepret it in a wrong way so i wont go any further. bottom line these people are brainwashed. please dont pin point the it to the religion.
as for the interpretation of the quran. we also have to check with the hadiths of the prophets. the problem in this arrives from the people who report it. we have to (shias) examine it properly, raionally, and find whether it is authentic hadith of the prophet or not. whether it is going against the quran or not, or whether it would be something that the prophet would say or not. all the sect have their sources of people who have reported the hadith. this is one thing that the doc didnt even examine and is the bottom line of the way different sect interpret the quran. we might not follow "sahi al bikhari" and others entirely but their is a unity. i dont need to explain further on this, cause im sure u know this right?
why do we need religion?
have u looked in the history books what was the scene like on earth before god send down prophets. in islam, its a common thought, religion would not be needed if mankind wouldnt terrorise, cause attrocities, break the law and do evil overall. when prophet Isa arrived (jesus), people had no freedom, no science would be passed until it was according to the priest/ religion. prophets moses, where people had no freedom under the rule of the king, where no man had his say niether no democracy and the age of prophet mohammad, where people use to bury their baby daughters because it was consider a sham back in that time. now tell me, what religion has done to remove these things. human rights would exist today if religion and those prophets didnt lead the way. LOOK AT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE TERRORIZING, ARE THEY RIGHT TO LEAD MANKIND. mahatma ghandi, mohammad ali jinnah, allaima iqbal, prophet mohammad, (pbuh), prophet isa (pbuh), Martin Luther,Joseph Smith and among thousands. all true rleigious people and accepted by all - what do they stand for and what was their reason.
god send down prophets to lead mankind to the right path, to live a better life that they can fulfill. unfortunately people went seprate ways, and u see a living exampe of it.
as for shias in iraq. couple weeks ago there was this doc on al jazeera or bbc (cant remember). which should the conflict in iraq as the aftermath of the war. i know people who have been to iraq last year and the stories they told me are really sad n heart upseting. its a universal custom, when a person travels to another country, while coming back he would bring something for the love ones. in iraq, its a different story. even the cloth u wear would embaress u infront of the people, by looking at their condition. its said, that if u buy a garment their, just give it to the poor. poverty their is so struck. and the conflict between sunni and shia is unspeakable. their simply brainwashed. i want to tell the stories but u might intepret it in a wrong way so i wont go any further. bottom line these people are brainwashed. please dont pin point the it to the religion.
as for the interpretation of the quran. we also have to check with the hadiths of the prophets. the problem in this arrives from the people who report it. we have to (shias) examine it properly, raionally, and find whether it is authentic hadith of the prophet or not. whether it is going against the quran or not, or whether it would be something that the prophet would say or not. all the sect have their sources of people who have reported the hadith. this is one thing that the doc didnt even examine and is the bottom line of the way different sect interpret the quran. we might not follow "sahi al bikhari" and others entirely but their is a unity. i dont need to explain further on this, cause im sure u know this right?
why do we need religion?
have u looked in the history books what was the scene like on earth before god send down prophets. in islam, its a common thought, religion would not be needed if mankind wouldnt terrorise, cause attrocities, break the law and do evil overall. when prophet Isa arrived (jesus), people had no freedom, no science would be passed until it was according to the priest/ religion. prophets moses, where people had no freedom under the rule of the king, where no man had his say niether no democracy and the age of prophet mohammad, where people use to bury their baby daughters because it was consider a sham back in that time. now tell me, what religion has done to remove these things. human rights would exist today if religion and those prophets didnt lead the way. LOOK AT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE TERRORIZING, ARE THEY RIGHT TO LEAD MANKIND. mahatma ghandi, mohammad ali jinnah, allaima iqbal, prophet mohammad, (pbuh), prophet isa (pbuh), Martin Luther,Joseph Smith and among thousands. all true rleigious people and accepted by all - what do they stand for and what was their reason.
god send down prophets to lead mankind to the right path, to live a better life that they can fulfill. unfortunately people went seprate ways, and u see a living exampe of it.
QUOTE(smarrie @ Sep 12 2009, 07:57 PM)
The post 9/11 media induced anschauung 'Islamists as a threat' transformed our prejudicial Western pre-occupation and legitimized a global resource grab in the guise of a "war on terror'. Christopher Hitchens (Murdoch minion), likewise, began his goose-stepping Islamofascist rants during this same hangover...aka 'rabid colonialist corporate crusader' (John Pilger). We no longer have an ability to differentiate personal opinion from propaganda...we regurgitate spoon fed buzz words and commemorate this assumed endemic brilliance by having our heads bronzed as keepsakes (immutable mindlessness).
You seriously think that Mark is posting due to an involuntary prejudice that he developed through the skewed American media? Come on man, you are not that stupid. People criticized fundamentalist theocracy LONG BEFORE 911, and rightly so.
If anything, there is simply not enough coverage on real life atrocity that occurs in fundamentalist Islamic countries. Where are the stories on female circumcision, or community death by stoning, or the insanely high suicide rate of raped and divorced women in fundamentalist Islamic countries? Even without 911 or the momentum it created, there is plenty to discuss.
(yes Hasnain, not ALL muslims do this, there are many different laws and rules, etc... but FAR TOO MANY DO. We ALL KNOW THIS BY NOW so please stop re-explaining this point.)
So again, stop assuming. What is with you people? Please stop assuming that we are anti-Islamic. We are ANTI ATROCITY, in any form.
Hasnain
VS Hasnain
Classic.
QUOTE
it is well known that a person can be good without religion.
VS Hasnain
QUOTE
its a common thought, religion would not be needed if mankind wouldnt terrorise, cause attrocities, break the law and do evil overall.
Classic.
QUOTE(hasnain @ Sep 12 2009, 09:52 PM)
violence are for the week and uneducated. i dont get u when u talk about circular reasoning. u well know that the true teaching of islam is against violence but still people point at this religion saying the violence is cause of this religion. if u see people causing chaos n violence in the name of god, would you A think its religion teaches it, or B curse these people and tell them this is not what ur religion teaches and call these people unislamic.
..........
as for the interpretation of the quran. we also have to check with the hadiths of the prophets. the problem in this arrives from the people who report it. we have to (shias) examine it properly, raionally, and find whether it is authentic hadith of the prophet or not. whether it is going against the quran or not, or whether it would be something that the prophet would say or not. all the sect have their sources of people who have reported the hadith. this is one thing that the doc didnt even examine and is the bottom line of the way different sect interpret the quran. we might not follow "sahi al bikhari" and others entirely but their is a unity. i dont need to explain further on this, cause im sure u know this right?
...... all true rleigious people and accepted by all - what do they stand for and what was their reason.
..........
as for the interpretation of the quran. we also have to check with the hadiths of the prophets. the problem in this arrives from the people who report it. we have to (shias) examine it properly, raionally, and find whether it is authentic hadith of the prophet or not. whether it is going against the quran or not, or whether it would be something that the prophet would say or not. all the sect have their sources of people who have reported the hadith. this is one thing that the doc didnt even examine and is the bottom line of the way different sect interpret the quran. we might not follow "sahi al bikhari" and others entirely but their is a unity. i dont need to explain further on this, cause im sure u know this right?
...... all true rleigious people and accepted by all - what do they stand for and what was their reason.
One thing that is hard for you to see (because you are borderline brainwashed) is that you think you can discount non-shia (specifically everyone BUT your slice of shia) as being "not true islamic" or "not true religious"
when they base their religion on islam but interpret it differently if it's not to your liking you say "not islamic" ...sorry but that doesn't fly (not forgetting you are a minority to most of them)
And it's funny that you're trying to paint shia in such a rose tinted light when you have the shia running places like iran and they r abusing just as many human rights as saudi arabia
Read about the "NO TRUE SCOTSMAN FALLACY"
You seem to be in the midst of a "NOT A TRUE ISLAMIC FALLACY"
"Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Glasgow Morning Herald and seeing an article about how the "Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again."
Hamish is shocked and declares that "No Scotsman would do such a thing."
The next day he sits down to read his Glasgow Morning Herald again and this time finds an article about an Aberdeen man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly.
This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely.
This time he says, "No TRUE Scotsman would do such a thing."
ALSO most of the bad stuff isn't even a "different interpretation" from the quran or hadiths it's just that some follow it strictly and some don't
The common thread with the human rights abuses always seems to come from some religiously sanctioned law found in the quran or hadiths etc
Here is just a small example ...
(some of these have links to quran,hadith,figh sources, n.b they are not the ONLY sources)
1) Whipping people for illicit sex, whipping for drinking alcohol, whipping for gambling etc [look at some of limits and punishments in the hadith]
2) or beating your disobedient wife - q:4.34
3) or the whole "eye for an eye - q:5.45" thing e.g a man in pakistan was sentenced to be blinded by acid after he had committed a similar crime
the beloved shia in iranian courts enjoy blinding people with allahs blessings too their are lots of examples all over the islamic world
4) Cutting off the hands of thieves is mentioned in quran here and again the punishments in the hadith here - this is going on all over
5) or the quran justified torture and crucifixion of people for highway robbery - Quran.5.33 and in the hadith
6) executing homosexuals is found in the hadiths - the punishment depends on which hadith but seems to range from prison,whipping,execution - and of course there's the general social exclusion and intolerance as instructed in the hadith here to "Turn them out of your houses"
7) Adultery - the quran says a whipping is in order and a punishment in a hadith talks about mohammed burying a woman adulterer up to her chest and had a crowd stone her ...to death (THEN forgave her ...i think?)
8) Muslims who blaspheme/criticise/insult/mock the quran,mohammed or islam in general can be sentenced to death i.e Salman Rushdie - this is set out in the Fiqh which is an expansion of the Sharia Islamic law (i dont have online links ...yet) -- The punishment may be less so if you are not a muslim ...depends on which holy law the court wants to use
9) Apostacy - in the hadith - "Whoever changes his religion, kill him"
There is so many more examples of abuses of human rights in islam this list could go on on and we haven't begun with the morality of mohammed or jihads or martyrs or the treatment of women in islamic law and practice. The amount of BS that comes from islam and is in practice today AND is backed by the quran/hadith/fiqh/sunan would make a HUGE list
oh and Salman Rushdie wrote an interesting article on why the islamic terrorism IS about islam - link here
and here's an interesting site run by ex muslims (yay apostacy) - http://www.apostatesofislam.com
The common thread with the human rights abuses always seems to come from some religiously sanctioned law found in the quran or hadiths etc
Here is just a small example ...
(some of these have links to quran,hadith,figh sources, n.b they are not the ONLY sources)
1) Whipping people for illicit sex, whipping for drinking alcohol, whipping for gambling etc [look at some of limits and punishments in the hadith]
2) or beating your disobedient wife - q:4.34
3) or the whole "eye for an eye - q:5.45" thing e.g a man in pakistan was sentenced to be blinded by acid after he had committed a similar crime
the beloved shia in iranian courts enjoy blinding people with allahs blessings too their are lots of examples all over the islamic world
4) Cutting off the hands of thieves is mentioned in quran here and again the punishments in the hadith here - this is going on all over
5) or the quran justified torture and crucifixion of people for highway robbery - Quran.5.33 and in the hadith
6) executing homosexuals is found in the hadiths - the punishment depends on which hadith but seems to range from prison,whipping,execution - and of course there's the general social exclusion and intolerance as instructed in the hadith here to "Turn them out of your houses"
7) Adultery - the quran says a whipping is in order and a punishment in a hadith talks about mohammed burying a woman adulterer up to her chest and had a crowd stone her ...to death (THEN forgave her ...i think?)
8) Muslims who blaspheme/criticise/insult/mock the quran,mohammed or islam in general can be sentenced to death i.e Salman Rushdie - this is set out in the Fiqh which is an expansion of the Sharia Islamic law (i dont have online links ...yet) -- The punishment may be less so if you are not a muslim ...depends on which holy law the court wants to use
9) Apostacy - in the hadith - "Whoever changes his religion, kill him"
There is so many more examples of abuses of human rights in islam this list could go on on and we haven't begun with the morality of mohammed or jihads or martyrs or the treatment of women in islamic law and practice. The amount of BS that comes from islam and is in practice today AND is backed by the quran/hadith/fiqh/sunan would make a HUGE list
oh and Salman Rushdie wrote an interesting article on why the islamic terrorism IS about islam - link here
and here's an interesting site run by ex muslims (yay apostacy) - http://www.apostatesofislam.com
The "No true Scotsman" reference perfectly hits the nail on the head. No contest.
We must all remember that it is the intense cognitive dissonance created by any religion that makes a believers reasoning so complex.
Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. The "ideas" or "cognitions" in question may include attitudes and beliefs, the awareness of one's behavior, and facts. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors, or by justifying or rationalizing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors. Cognitive dissonance theory is one of the most influential and extensively studied theories in social psychology.
We must all remember that it is the intense cognitive dissonance created by any religion that makes a believers reasoning so complex.
Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. The "ideas" or "cognitions" in question may include attitudes and beliefs, the awareness of one's behavior, and facts. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors, or by justifying or rationalizing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors. Cognitive dissonance theory is one of the most influential and extensively studied theories in social psychology.
i was chatting to my friend the other about this forum, and he said something about athiest. he said that he see u guys as a notebook, in which the basic good message of peace have been extracted from the 'book of religion' in order to avoid reading the whole 'book of religion' an following its obligations.
u guys are well brainwashed n close minded. and as for The "No true Scotsman" bullshit. the thing is, i neva said no "muslim" would do such a thing. there is no excuse for people who use religion as violence.
apparently u guys are becoming very famous in facebook!
u guys are well brainwashed n close minded. and as for The "No true Scotsman" bullshit. the thing is, i neva said no "muslim" would do such a thing. there is no excuse for people who use religion as violence.
apparently u guys are becoming very famous in facebook!
QUOTE(hasnain @ Sep 14 2009, 09:14 PM)
i was chatting to my friend the other about this forum, and he said something about athiest. he said that he see u guys as a notebook, in which the basic good message of peace have been extracted from the 'book of religion' in order to avoid reading the whole 'book of religion' an following its obligations.
u guys are well brainwashed n close minded. and as for The "No true Scotsman" bullshit. the thing is, i neva said no "muslim" would do such a thing. there is no excuse for people who use religion as violence.
apparently u guys are becoming very famous in facebook!
u guys are well brainwashed n close minded. and as for The "No true Scotsman" bullshit. the thing is, i neva said no "muslim" would do such a thing. there is no excuse for people who use religion as violence.
apparently u guys are becoming very famous in facebook!
Denial, denial, denial...
I really don't want to get involved but alot of those same types of punishments can be found in the Christian bible. So I think it's a case of the kettle calling the pot black. The bible has some pretty horrible things in it. Like making your wife subservient, beating your kids, etc. They may not be practiced to any large extent anymore but they are still in there.
I personally believe that as many of the more repressive Islamic nations become more "westernized" they will start to abandoned these things as well. I had two very good Muslim friends in Lexington who where very laid back in the sense they would drink with me; didn't believe that women should be forced to cover up their entire bodies, etc. They were both from Iran and told me that the younger generations in most Muslim nations share their sentiments it is just that most of the power structures we're still run by old men and priests. That's actually why their families had to move. They were all political activists.
I personally believe that as many of the more repressive Islamic nations become more "westernized" they will start to abandoned these things as well. I had two very good Muslim friends in Lexington who where very laid back in the sense they would drink with me; didn't believe that women should be forced to cover up their entire bodies, etc. They were both from Iran and told me that the younger generations in most Muslim nations share their sentiments it is just that most of the power structures we're still run by old men and priests. That's actually why their families had to move. They were all political activists.
QUOTE(hasnain @ Sep 15 2009, 08:14 AM)
i was chatting to my friend the other about this forum, and he said something about athiest. he said that he see u guys as a notebook, in which the basic good message of peace have been extracted from the 'book of religion' in order to avoid reading the whole 'book of religion' an following its obligations.
u guys are well brainwashed n close minded. and as for The "No true Scotsman" bullshit. the thing is, i neva said no "muslim" would do such a thing. there is no excuse for people who use religion as violence.
apparently u guys are becoming very famous in facebook!
u guys are well brainwashed n close minded. and as for The "No true Scotsman" bullshit. the thing is, i neva said no "muslim" would do such a thing. there is no excuse for people who use religion as violence.
apparently u guys are becoming very famous in facebook!
Hasnain, atheists don't strip away our morals from any holy text or take it from god. Morality is a completely natural thing. I have already explained why it is so. All through nature animals that live in groups have to be altruistic to each other in order for survival. If not, the group dies out.
e.g. A lion pride that has several large males and several females. Altruism is indeed in action here. The lions do not kill each other, do not try to harm one another (unless in competition for a mate.. but this is only so the stronger genes can be passed on.. i.e. evolution).
Now we come to slightly higher mammals such as chimpanzees. Chimpanzees live in a very structured society. They help groom each other to keep one another free of pests, and again, they do not try to kill one another.
Then we come to prehistoric man. The first villiages were also very altruistic. People that had different skills would trade with another person who had different skills. And again, as a majority they did not try to kill each other off. All of these actions ensure the survival of the community.
God has had nothing to do with the nature of morality. Therefore, atheists haven't "borrowed" our morals from any religious text or any god. Altruism is a tool of evolution. Altruism (morals) is a means for survival within a community.
So, you can tell your mate that he's quite simply wrong Hasnain. Your religious world views have narrowed your vision on the reality of nature quite a bit.
HAHA I think I just found the poster-child for religion. Go to 8:00
QUOTE
u guys are well brainwashed n close minded.
Hoe...
lee...
shit.
i think u wasted ur speach on the whole morality thing only if ur arguing with a muslim. let me tell u a fact that we all muslim know of since hundreds of years. MORALITY exist in all human beings whether a believer or a non believer FULL STOP. but a big butttt comes in. that morality is basic. human being can become and lead a life of perfection and this is why we need morals and ethics code. yes also to survive, be kind, gentle creatures etc all to lead ourself to perfection. under gods eyes, ur morals deeds weighs more than any other deeds like fasting, praying, forbidding urself from doing bad etc.
http://www.iiu.edu.my/deed/articles/themoralsystem.html
the moral codes and ethics in islam is thought is not basic. let me give u few example on the morals and ethic code laid down from this religion (basic basic level).
1. a person went to the prophet Mohammed(PBUH) and asked him "Who has the first priorty to be well treated? Prophet Mohammed answered him "your mother",
He asked "then who?" He(PBUH) answered "your mother" Asked again "then who?" Answered (PBUH)"your mother" Asked "then who?" Mohammed answered(PBUH)"your father". this is why status of a mother in islam is higher than anything. even so, god has said, that he laid the heaven beneath every mother. beautiful! obviously speaking methaporically ofcourse.
2. for a muslim two very thing, extreme "pride and egotism", is said to be stayed away from and is among the things that Allah dislike the most. Imam Sadiq (a.s.) relates from Imam ali (a.s.), Pride and egotism are signs of weak intellect.
3.The Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.s.) once said, "O Abu Zar, keep yourself away from backbiting because it is worse than adultery ... After committing adultery, if one repents, Allah forgives him, but the backbiter can not be pardoned unless he has been pardoned by the one about whom he has been backbiting."
4. in islam, when a daughter request her father somthing that she desires, it is bound on him to fulfill it. note - its a natural thing, a father may have a love towards his daughter differently than the sons, it is unique. u maybe a father to know this 1 or have sistas.
5. Respect your parents and love them even if they treat you wrong. respect whoever is older than you, and treat who ever is younger with mercy and kindness.
6. among the rules in islam is that it is forbidden to kill an animal "just like that" for his enjoyment. certain animals are granted to be eaten and should only be killed if its eaten. so hunting is forbidden. The companions once asked the prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) “Do we earn reward if we treat animals in good manner? He answered: “Yes; surely, you earn rewards whenever you treat any living being in a good manner.” Cutting tress without justification and spoiling water of rivers and spring are forbidden.
7. Even a "smile" to someone is consider a good deed.
8. giving charity is obligatory on every muslim.
9. lying is forbidden, but only acceptable in certain circumstances. for example, when two brother fighting between each other, lying can be done inorder to renuite them.
10. cleanliness is a must on every muslim. he/she must stay away from impurities. why? i think by now people discovered.
knowledge is a lost wealth of a beliver (so whenever you find it, take it).
11. knowledge is a lost wealth of a beliver (so whenever you find it, take it).
12. every muslim have the right to work both man n women.
morality in islam addresses every aspect of a Muslim's life! now tell me, these are just a rain drop of morals thought in this religion as we are following it since centuries.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=pEdJmW8...als&f=false
Islam 101: Principles and Practice By Arshad Khan
http://www.iiu.edu.my/deed/articles/themoralsystem.html
the moral codes and ethics in islam is thought is not basic. let me give u few example on the morals and ethic code laid down from this religion (basic basic level).
1. a person went to the prophet Mohammed(PBUH) and asked him "Who has the first priorty to be well treated? Prophet Mohammed answered him "your mother",
He asked "then who?" He(PBUH) answered "your mother" Asked again "then who?" Answered (PBUH)"your mother" Asked "then who?" Mohammed answered(PBUH)"your father". this is why status of a mother in islam is higher than anything. even so, god has said, that he laid the heaven beneath every mother. beautiful! obviously speaking methaporically ofcourse.
2. for a muslim two very thing, extreme "pride and egotism", is said to be stayed away from and is among the things that Allah dislike the most. Imam Sadiq (a.s.) relates from Imam ali (a.s.), Pride and egotism are signs of weak intellect.
3.The Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.s.) once said, "O Abu Zar, keep yourself away from backbiting because it is worse than adultery ... After committing adultery, if one repents, Allah forgives him, but the backbiter can not be pardoned unless he has been pardoned by the one about whom he has been backbiting."
4. in islam, when a daughter request her father somthing that she desires, it is bound on him to fulfill it. note - its a natural thing, a father may have a love towards his daughter differently than the sons, it is unique. u maybe a father to know this 1 or have sistas.
5. Respect your parents and love them even if they treat you wrong. respect whoever is older than you, and treat who ever is younger with mercy and kindness.
6. among the rules in islam is that it is forbidden to kill an animal "just like that" for his enjoyment. certain animals are granted to be eaten and should only be killed if its eaten. so hunting is forbidden. The companions once asked the prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) “Do we earn reward if we treat animals in good manner? He answered: “Yes; surely, you earn rewards whenever you treat any living being in a good manner.” Cutting tress without justification and spoiling water of rivers and spring are forbidden.
7. Even a "smile" to someone is consider a good deed.
8. giving charity is obligatory on every muslim.
9. lying is forbidden, but only acceptable in certain circumstances. for example, when two brother fighting between each other, lying can be done inorder to renuite them.
10. cleanliness is a must on every muslim. he/she must stay away from impurities. why? i think by now people discovered.
knowledge is a lost wealth of a beliver (so whenever you find it, take it).
11. knowledge is a lost wealth of a beliver (so whenever you find it, take it).
12. every muslim have the right to work both man n women.
morality in islam addresses every aspect of a Muslim's life! now tell me, these are just a rain drop of morals thought in this religion as we are following it since centuries.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=pEdJmW8...als&f=false
Islam 101: Principles and Practice By Arshad Khan
There is no universal morality. Any attempt to find such a morality is automatically wrong. We have known this for hundreds of years. Your sermon here is counter-productive.
Hasnian, you clearly lack the mental agility to fathom what is begin discussed here on a deeper level. One requires a measure of mental flexibility to accept another persons point of view and then criticize it. You will not for a second imagine a world with differing morals, universal human rights outside of religion, or other religious possibilities. This makes you very poorly suited for such a conversation, since you believe that you have all the answers already.
The skeptics here on the boards can however largely accept the religious perspective. You forget that many skeptics were once deeply religious. Many of us know exactly why you are thinking, saying and doing what you are doing. In hindsight, our vision is 20/20. People do not become devoutly religious, then atheistic and THEN go back to being devoutly religious. We have FAR too much perspective to just throw away. Skeptics never claim to have all the answers, and fans of science accept that even the most logical answers can be better explained in different ways.
The beauty of a theory is that it provides breathing room for other ideas. Religion strangles all other possibilities with it's absolute truth.
The only real universal moral imperative is: How can humans best treat each other as a whole at this point of time? With Bronze Age religions or with Human Rights? The answer is clear and it is clearly winning.
Hasnian, you clearly lack the mental agility to fathom what is begin discussed here on a deeper level. One requires a measure of mental flexibility to accept another persons point of view and then criticize it. You will not for a second imagine a world with differing morals, universal human rights outside of religion, or other religious possibilities. This makes you very poorly suited for such a conversation, since you believe that you have all the answers already.
The skeptics here on the boards can however largely accept the religious perspective. You forget that many skeptics were once deeply religious. Many of us know exactly why you are thinking, saying and doing what you are doing. In hindsight, our vision is 20/20. People do not become devoutly religious, then atheistic and THEN go back to being devoutly religious. We have FAR too much perspective to just throw away. Skeptics never claim to have all the answers, and fans of science accept that even the most logical answers can be better explained in different ways.
The beauty of a theory is that it provides breathing room for other ideas. Religion strangles all other possibilities with it's absolute truth.
The only real universal moral imperative is: How can humans best treat each other as a whole at this point of time? With Bronze Age religions or with Human Rights? The answer is clear and it is clearly winning.
"...the greatest menace to our civilization today is the conflict between giant organized systems of self-righteousness...each system only too delighted to find that the other is wicked...each only too glad that the sins give it the pretext for still deeper hatred and animosity." H. Butterfield
QUOTE(smarrie @ Sep 16 2009, 12:02 PM)
"...the greatest menace to our civilization today is the conflict between giant organized systems of self-righteousness [religions] ...each system only too delighted to find that the other is wicked...each only too glad that the sins give it the pretext for still deeper hatred and animosity." H. Butterfield
My emphasis.
No doubt.
The ultimate self-righteous people have got to be religious. Those who are religious are saved, pure and deserving of an afterlife consisting of eternal bliss? They know EXACTLY who made the universe, and how best to worship that invisible creature. Everyone else is wrong, and only they are right. They may then cast judgment due to their superior morality passed on to them by the very creator of the universe.
Ummmm...... I believe it doesn't get more self-righteous than that.
No way. Iza didn't actually say this did she? Oh brother. She is gonna be shocked to realize that when her god supposedly created the universe we were brewing beer while speaking far older languages than Hebrew.
Reminds me of... "If English Was Good Enough for Jesus, It's Good Enough for Me”
The ultimate self-righteous people have got to be religious. Those who are religious are saved, pure and deserving of an afterlife consisting of eternal bliss? They know EXACTLY who made the universe, and how best to worship that invisible creature. Everyone else is wrong, and only they are right. They may then cast judgment due to their superior morality passed on to them by the very creator of the universe.
Ummmm...... I believe it doesn't get more self-righteous than that.
QUOTE
"If you want a history listen then OK. Hebrew is the oldest language and is still used today. How about your Pagan languages ..No."
No way. Iza didn't actually say this did she? Oh brother. She is gonna be shocked to realize that when her god supposedly created the universe we were brewing beer while speaking far older languages than Hebrew.
Reminds me of... "If English Was Good Enough for Jesus, It's Good Enough for Me”
QUOTE(ultraforge @ Sep 17 2009, 08:16 AM)
No way. Iza didn't actually say this did she? Oh brother. She is gonna be shocked to realize that when her god supposedly created the universe we were brewing beer while speaking far older languages than Hebrew.
Reminds me of... "If English Was Good Enough for Jesus, It's Good Enough for Me”
Reminds me of... "If English Was Good Enough for Jesus, It's Good Enough for Me”
Oh yeah she most definitely did, pmsl. I have a new 'Iza of the week', it's another doozy!
Hasnain, would you commit murder, rape or robbery if you knew that no God existed?
Mark, it cracks me up, every time you have an "Iza of th week" I seem to be the direct influence for it! 
Ego trip.
Ego trip.
"BTW You like and admire Alan Moore? You do know he worships a snake god named Glycon, right? If you ever get the opportunity to ever talk to him ask him if that snake talks to him. And you think I'm crazy? "
LOL! Did the snake in the garden of Eden telepathically communicate, or use sign language perhaps? Wow.
LOL! Did the snake in the garden of Eden telepathically communicate, or use sign language perhaps? Wow.
QUOTE(mark8 @ Sep 17 2009, 02:10 PM)
Oh yeah she most definitely did, pmsl. I have a new 'Iza of the week', it's another doozy!
Hasnain, would you commit murder, rape or robbery if you knew that no God existed?
Hasnain, would you commit murder, rape or robbery if you knew that no God existed?
oh, im srry got a bit distracted. didnt know u guys were still argueing. bonker!
let me make something really straight forward.
The world would be a better place if religion did not exist, ONLY if we found the "Truth".
Religion is not truth butttt only a guide to it. my religion is a guidance to the truth and thats it.
i dont get this with u guys making things very confusing. unjustice breeds hate. and there is no more unjustice than denying GOD and trying to impose that on believers, by ridiculing them or by imposing laws that interfere with their worship. ive havent met n e single one among u who showed anysort of kindness nor a courage to understand ones religion. ive met better people than u - pity. ive lsten to everything to wa u athiest have said and do have a better understanding that athiest are screaming not for nothing. i mean u people are intlellect, smart and make some good arguments but they are mostly misunderstood and in my opinion confuse .
u do know what u guys are doing right. ever heard of cyber bullying. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyber-bullying. who the hell do u think u r when u call me izza. i feel srry for izza the way u guys treated her n her beliefs. u embarassed and hurt her feelings nd one of u said he is a feminist? waaa???
"would you commit murder, rape or robbery if you knew that no God existed?"
what do u think leads a man to think of commiting a murder, to commit even a rape or a robbery. ask a policeman how does one leads to comit murders and what makes them. ask him to show the guys who have raped women and ask him their views on why do people rob others.
do u think pornography is good for the society if so, where do u think child pornography came from? a person who does something bad, u guys immediatly blame it on his god or his religion cause he is a part of it, without looking if he is actually is following it rightly or not. people who kill with guns, why do u not blame the guy who invented it in the first place? why dont u screw with people who use religion as a way of violence?
this religion has thought me so much, gave me so much peace nd happiness that i dont have the need to comit any crime! if i compare this life to any other life in which god didnt existed, i would be very depressed. i noe i wouldnt be that happy. i understand the world far better nd see the how miracolous god is when scientist come with new discoveries on the universe etc.
i noe i will never murder someone, nor rape or comit a robbery now, cause i noe the punishment. read the history books, the best example is what happend in the "age of jahalia". look at the way people acted, where no man would be trusted. people buried thier daughters alive, slavery was every where, no democracy, people niether helped nor took any responsibility nd this is only few of the stuff from this age. the fear of god wasnt their, yes few people were good but the rest wanst.
the main thing is that a person can comit a crime if he wants. thats his will, nd niether god nor religion is stoping it. the way a religion works is that it brings a person around from doing such things shaping its mind to think neva of commiting it. if the mind is set, to stay away from such deeds it would obviously be rational to think that most of these people would never comit such things.
in islam their is a common belief, if a babys born he would realise the existence of god, it is the society and the culture which halts its thoughts on the existence of god. a new born would never be shocked to know if such thing as god existed cause that seed in his mind is already implanted to know everything gotta come from someone, did it shocked u when hearing about god at first. thats why the verse from the quran says, if u want to belive in me truly, than i shall guide u to me.
as for mr forge.
courage, bravery, loving, honousty, caring etc are among the universal moral. ever seen a mothers love towards her son, thats universal. i dont debate with u cause ur not worthy off. u havent got n e info on islam, just christianty so u think i have to debate with u.
i noe of far better people who can debate with u proper if u think u can, i can hook u up if u want. what do u say?
Hasnain, in polite society it's very shameful to deride a person's religion to his face. Unfortunately this is the internet. People can and will be douchebags as they know you can do little about it.
Just know that not all atheists will openly attack you and they are as diverse a people as any group of muslims, christians and buddhists. Personally, I'm comfortable enough with my atheism that I don't feel the need to see how my views stand up against other people's. The people who do that are no less annoying than a preachy mormon knocking on your door or anti jew drunk going on a rant.
Just know that not all atheists will openly attack you and they are as diverse a people as any group of muslims, christians and buddhists. Personally, I'm comfortable enough with my atheism that I don't feel the need to see how my views stand up against other people's. The people who do that are no less annoying than a preachy mormon knocking on your door or anti jew drunk going on a rant.
QUOTE(hasnain @ Sep 18 2009, 05:52 PM)
as for mr forge.
i dont debate with u cause ur not worthy off. u havent got n e info on islam,
i dont debate with u cause ur not worthy off. u havent got n e info on islam,
same thing again. you will never know as much as me, so your not worthy.
QUOTE(dumbsaint @ Sep 18 2009, 07:43 PM)
Hasnain, in polite society it's very shameful to deride a person's religion to his face.
Just know that not all atheists will openly attack you
Just know that not all atheists will openly attack you
although religious people can shove it in your face anywhere, anytime. put "god" on a sign, and you have automatic license to spew hate and ignorance. you just don't see that with atheists.
true, not all atheists will openly attack you, but when a giant fountain of bullshit spews from your mouth, then someone might say something. and not just religion, but any bullshit. just when its religion, then they are wrong?
QUOTE(dumbsaint @ Sep 19 2009, 12:43 AM)
Hasnain, in polite society it's very shameful to deride a person's religion to his face. Unfortunately this is the internet. People can and will be douchebags as they know you can do little about it.
Just know that not all atheists will openly attack you and they are as diverse a people as any group of muslims, christians and buddhists. Personally, I'm comfortable enough with my atheism that I don't feel the need to see how my views stand up against other people's. The people who do that are no less annoying than a preachy mormon knocking on your door or anti jew drunk going on a rant.
Just know that not all atheists will openly attack you and they are as diverse a people as any group of muslims, christians and buddhists. Personally, I'm comfortable enough with my atheism that I don't feel the need to see how my views stand up against other people's. The people who do that are no less annoying than a preachy mormon knocking on your door or anti jew drunk going on a rant.
You sound like a closet theist.
QUOTE(morpheusprime @ Sep 19 2009, 10:37 AM)
although religious people can shove it in your face anywhere, anytime. put "god" on a sign, and you have automatic license to spew hate and ignorance. you just don't see that with atheists.
true, not all atheists will openly attack you, but when a giant fountain of bullshit spews from your mouth, then someone might say something. and not just religion, but any bullshit. just when its religion, then they are wrong?
true, not all atheists will openly attack you, but when a giant fountain of bullshit spews from your mouth, then someone might say something. and not just religion, but any bullshit. just when its religion, then they are wrong?
Mate, despite all that from our perspective all their beliefs are BS and from their perspective so are ours. You're not going to be able to agree so just be polite. Beyond that, someone's head isn't going to explode if they hear the wrong thing and presumably you've got enough confidence in your own beliefs not to feel endangered so who are you defending? Let the guy have his piece it won't hurt.
You should hear the way a lot of atheists talk about countries like the USA where I'm from. Extremely hateful and ignorant.
QUOTE(Vaiagra @ Sep 19 2009, 04:35 PM)
You sound like a closet theist.
Better that than being a rude piece of work like yourself matey.
It is a miracle that human kind made it through 100 000 years of raping, murdering and torturing each other up until now.
Actually, over that 100 000 years we developed a sense of community and morality, since it is the people that benefit others that best benefit themselves. This is a trait we all adapted into. If you look really closely you will see that the same breed of animal rarely murders itself without religion either. Humans kill themselves the most, and also have the most religious reasons to do so. That also explains how atheists commit no more crimes than religious people. In fact, they commit less.
Right on man. Yeah, who cares about those massive suicide rates of divorced and raped women in fundamentalist Islamic countries. Who cares if Sharia law is totally incompatible with human rights. You aren't gonna be the one to set things straight. You are far too kind and open minded for that sort of thing. So, enjoy all the friends you make by being such a confident and secure atheist. In the meantime, I'll be giving a fuck about human life.
The first 5 things you mention are not universal. They are completely subjective. I know you do not understand what I mean, but at least others do. For example, a suicide bomber who is ready to cash in on 72 virrgins would consider himself "brave". A man circumcising his daughter so that her genitals are sewn shut may consider this a "loving" act, or perhaps he is "brave" to risk her life due to infection for her supposed long run benefit.
In fact, if you regard any sort of human law as universal, you will essentially STOP making new laws, or adjusting them based on different situations This however is the very definition of religion, and it is the reason why bronze age rules belong in the bronze age.
I agree with the last point tho, but unfortunately no religion has tapped into this. Well, arguably atheists have... by virtue of having no religion other than the religion of mom.... which is a most devout form of worship. At the top of the atheist totem pole there is a mom.... no gods. The grand irony is that, in most religions, at the top there is... a dad?
Actually, over that 100 000 years we developed a sense of community and morality, since it is the people that benefit others that best benefit themselves. This is a trait we all adapted into. If you look really closely you will see that the same breed of animal rarely murders itself without religion either. Humans kill themselves the most, and also have the most religious reasons to do so. That also explains how atheists commit no more crimes than religious people. In fact, they commit less.
QUOTE
Just know that not all atheists will openly attack you and they are as diverse a people as any group of muslims, christians and buddhists. Personally, I'm comfortable enough with my atheism that I don't feel the need to see how my views stand up against other people's. The people who do that are no less annoying than a preachy mormon knocking on your door or anti jew drunk going on a rant.
Right on man. Yeah, who cares about those massive suicide rates of divorced and raped women in fundamentalist Islamic countries. Who cares if Sharia law is totally incompatible with human rights. You aren't gonna be the one to set things straight. You are far too kind and open minded for that sort of thing. So, enjoy all the friends you make by being such a confident and secure atheist. In the meantime, I'll be giving a fuck about human life.
QUOTE
as for mr forge.
courage, bravery, loving, honousty, caring etc are among the universal moral. ever seen a mothers love towards her son, thats universal.
courage, bravery, loving, honousty, caring etc are among the universal moral. ever seen a mothers love towards her son, thats universal.
The first 5 things you mention are not universal. They are completely subjective. I know you do not understand what I mean, but at least others do. For example, a suicide bomber who is ready to cash in on 72 virrgins would consider himself "brave". A man circumcising his daughter so that her genitals are sewn shut may consider this a "loving" act, or perhaps he is "brave" to risk her life due to infection for her supposed long run benefit.
In fact, if you regard any sort of human law as universal, you will essentially STOP making new laws, or adjusting them based on different situations This however is the very definition of religion, and it is the reason why bronze age rules belong in the bronze age.
I agree with the last point tho, but unfortunately no religion has tapped into this. Well, arguably atheists have... by virtue of having no religion other than the religion of mom.... which is a most devout form of worship. At the top of the atheist totem pole there is a mom.... no gods. The grand irony is that, in most religions, at the top there is... a dad?
QUOTE(ultraforge @ Sep 19 2009, 05:13 PM)
It is a miracle that human kind made it through 100 000 years of raping, murdering and torturing each other up until now.
Actually, over that 100 000 years we developed a sense of community and morality, since it is the people that benefit others that best benefit themselves. This is a trait we all adapted into. If you look really closely you will see that the same breed of animal rarely murders itself without religion either. Humans kill themselves the most, and also have the most religious reasons to do so. That also explains how atheists commit no more crimes than religious people. In fact, they commit less.
Right on man. Yeah, who cares about those massive suicide rates of divorced and raped women in fundamentalist Islamic countries. Who cares if Sharia law is totally incompatible with human rights. You aren't gonna be the one to set things straight. You are far too kind and open minded for that sort of thing. So, enjoy all the friends you make by being such a confident and secure atheist. In the meantime, I'll be giving a fuck about human life.
The first 5 things you mention are not universal. They are completely subjective. I know you do not understand what I mean, but at least others do. For example, a suicide bomber who is ready to cash in on 72 virrgins would consider himself "brave". A man circumcising his daughter so that her genitals are sewn shut may consider this a "loving" act, or perhaps he is "brave" to risk her life due to infection for her supposed long run benefit.
In fact, if you regard any sort of human law as universal, you will essentially STOP making new laws, or adjusting them based on different situations This however is the very definition of religion, and it is the reason why bronze age rules belong in the bronze age.
I agree with the last point tho, but unfortunately no religion has tapped into this. Well, arguably atheists have... by virtue of having no religion other than the religion of mom.... which is a most devout form of worship. At the top of the atheist totem pole there is a mom.... no gods. The grand irony is that, in most religions, at the top there is... a dad?
Actually, over that 100 000 years we developed a sense of community and morality, since it is the people that benefit others that best benefit themselves. This is a trait we all adapted into. If you look really closely you will see that the same breed of animal rarely murders itself without religion either. Humans kill themselves the most, and also have the most religious reasons to do so. That also explains how atheists commit no more crimes than religious people. In fact, they commit less.
Right on man. Yeah, who cares about those massive suicide rates of divorced and raped women in fundamentalist Islamic countries. Who cares if Sharia law is totally incompatible with human rights. You aren't gonna be the one to set things straight. You are far too kind and open minded for that sort of thing. So, enjoy all the friends you make by being such a confident and secure atheist. In the meantime, I'll be giving a fuck about human life.
The first 5 things you mention are not universal. They are completely subjective. I know you do not understand what I mean, but at least others do. For example, a suicide bomber who is ready to cash in on 72 virrgins would consider himself "brave". A man circumcising his daughter so that her genitals are sewn shut may consider this a "loving" act, or perhaps he is "brave" to risk her life due to infection for her supposed long run benefit.
In fact, if you regard any sort of human law as universal, you will essentially STOP making new laws, or adjusting them based on different situations This however is the very definition of religion, and it is the reason why bronze age rules belong in the bronze age.
I agree with the last point tho, but unfortunately no religion has tapped into this. Well, arguably atheists have... by virtue of having no religion other than the religion of mom.... which is a most devout form of worship. At the top of the atheist totem pole there is a mom.... no gods. The grand irony is that, in most religions, at the top there is... a dad?
It's called cultural relativism mate you might not like how other people conduct themselves in another country; but you're really in no place to do anything of any importance about it. Yeah people do horrible things to people in the name of religion. People do horrible things in the name of Oil and democracy too. Where I live people butt out of other peoples religious beliefs and in this manner people get along. Incidently, most of the crime where I am from is committed by people with no religious convictions.
There's a lot of horrible stuff going on in the world I agree. I'm glad you've decided to put an end to it by mocking peoples religions on the internet. Nice going team hero.
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