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hitmewitdarock
a thorough debunking of the loose change 9/11 conspiracy video...
you decide...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3...h&plindex=0
Wtiberon
This is a great rebuttal to Loose Change that actually uses facts, sources, and accurate information to prove Loose Change and the conspiracy theorists are full of shit. If you are still a conspiracy theorist after watching this you should go to a hospital so they can diagnose you as retarded and then you should lob off your ball sack because you don't need to pollute the population.
Screw Loose Change
stealthgear
QUOTE(Wtiberon @ Jul 9 2007, 11:10 PM) *
This is a great rebuttal to Loose Change that actually uses facts, sources, and accurate information to prove Loose Change and the conspiracy theorists are full of shit. If you are still a conspiracy theorist after watching this you should go to a hospital so they can diagnose you as retarded and then you should lob off your ball sack because you don't need to pollute the population.
Screw Loose Change



you are proof that the people who do not question the govt are purely violent nuts.
Wtiberon
QUOTE(stealthgear @ Jul 9 2007, 08:36 PM) *
you are proof that the people who do not question the govt are purely violent nuts.


No its nuts like you who lay instant blame on the government without proof and on the words of others. Your dangerous seek help. I gave the 9/11 conspiracy its due diligence and was intrigued by the evidence that was presented before me. However as I dug deeper it all fell apart...that usually happens when you pile up bullshit. Watch the video and really think hard between puffs...did the government orchestrate a plan, involving hundreds of low waged government employees, killed thousands of people so they could invade Iraq or did a handful of jihadists finally finish an objective of destroying the twin towers which they had been attempting for years?
WormSelf
QUOTE(Wtiberon @ Jul 9 2007, 06:10 PM) *
This is a great rebuttal to Loose Change that actually uses facts, sources, and accurate information to prove Loose Change and the conspiracy theorists are full of shit. If you are still a conspiracy theorist after watching this you should go to a hospital so they can diagnose you as retarded and then you should lob off your ball sack because you don't need to pollute the population.
Screw Loose Change

I agree with you 100% my friend!
WormSelf
QUOTE(stealthgear @ Jul 9 2007, 07:36 PM) *
you are proof that the people who do not question the govt are purely violent nuts.

In my expierience people who do not question are usually submisive not violent. And how do you know they haven't questioned the gov.?
Adster
Coming from a Canadian looking from an outside point of view it seems foolish to not question your government. I have no idea why you havent impeached Bush yet. Hes killed 5x the amount of his own people than the "terrorists" did on 9/11. For what? his war against what? his war against Iraqis who have not EVER done anything to the USA. Not to mention Bush didnt win either of those elections.

I dont have anything wrong with the American people, most of you are nice and want the same things we have in Canada, I just feel bad that you have a tyrannical government that runs you by fear. I live near Detroit and I watch your news and its always meant to scare the shit out of you. I wish there was more I can do because there are a lot of good people in your country that are too afraid to stand up for themselves.

I always give each side of the story a fair listen, and even if 9/11 were set up or not it still doesnt change the fact that Bush is a fucking loser.

This is a good doc, but it only examines a fraction of the questionable events on that sad, sad day democracy in the USA fell to its knees.
CallMeJake
QUOTE(Adster @ Jul 9 2007, 04:45 PM) *
Coming from a Canadian looking from an outside point of view it seems foolish to not question your government. I have no idea why you havent impeached Bush yet. Hes killed 5x the amount of his own people than the "terrorists" did on 9/11. For what? his war against what? his war against Iraqis who have not EVER done anything to the USA. Not to mention Bush didnt win either of those elections.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_i...e_United_States

Nobody wants to see a President Cheney.

I think this is a good Anti-Conspiracy Doc also.

"Screw 9/11 Mysteries"
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6...2F11+conspiracy
mnotr2
A saying I've always liked, "I'll take all the advice I can get.. and then do what I want to do." It means in one way..I like to get as many sides of a story as I can get before I make a decision. I've never liked the Government's side.. freedom of information isn't in this Presidency's handbook it seems, to many unanswered questions that have no reason not to be answered, unless... the not answering gives them a leg up.. even if they weren't involved. I'm referring to one possibility, the "mushroom" technique of politics.. "Feed em lot's of bullshit and keep em in the dark". Or even the "Rawhide" technique.. "Keep em nervous and moving and they won't think of how hungry or thirsty they are, or of bedding down." The 9/11 Conspiracy groups are a little to radical and agenda orientated as well. This guy in this doc had some good points and some good evidence.. but used the same "carny" showmanship methods of delivery as well as being a snarky asshole. Took the edge off what was good stuff. The truth, which the country needs to hear in order to heal, is somewhere out there and this country deserves to hear it. It should be coming from reliable sources and trusted elected officials that act only in the interest of finding the truth and are beyond reproach in doing so... The 9/11 commission as well as these web hounds are neither for one simple reason.. conflict of interest... So until there is such a source.. I'll do what a history teacher told me about conflicting historical documentation. "Take from both sides what is mutually agreed upon happening.. take from each side what is plausible by past reliable documented actions of each side.. mix together with a touch of cynicism.. and that will be the closet you will get to the truth with out actually being there." Still.. with out much real factual info being offered up for the real hard questions from any sources..... Guess this one will just have to be added to the John/Bobby/Martin Grassy Knoll Department of Unanswered Questions, Mysteries, Conspiracies, Alien Autopsies, and Monsters... and that is so not right..

As for my opinion of what happened on 9/11. 19 terrorists hijacked the passengers and crew of 4 planes, and under the terrorist's control, the planes were crashed into two towers, one building, and one field. The two towers collapsed... many innocent people died at all 4 crash sites. A meaningless horrific tragedy. Enough was known about the 19 terrorists previous to 9/11 to have prevented 9/11 by our US Government... and possibly, our so called allies. After 9/11, while still deep in mourning, the citizens of this country were then hijacked by the current administration, and under this administration's control.. this country was then crashed into the Middle East. Many many many more innocent people have died there as well... and are still dying. Another meaningless horrific tragedy. My opinion and what I believe..





WormSelf
QUOTE(Adster @ Jul 9 2007, 11:45 PM) *
Coming from a Canadian looking from an outside point of view it seems foolish to not question your government. I have no idea why you havent impeached Bush yet. Hes killed 5x the amount of his own people than the "terrorists" did on 9/11. For what? his war against what? his war against Iraqis who have not EVER done anything to the USA. Not to mention Bush didnt win either of those elections.

I dont have anything wrong with the American people, most of you are nice and want the same things we have in Canada, I just feel bad that you have a tyrannical government that runs you by fear. I live near Detroit and I watch your news and its always meant to scare the shit out of you. I wish there was more I can do because there are a lot of good people in your country that are too afraid to stand up for themselves.

I always give each side of the story a fair listen, and even if 9/11 were set up or not it still doesnt change the fact that Bush is a fucking loser.

This is a good doc, but it only examines a fraction of the questionable events on that sad, sad day democracy in the USA fell to its knees.

I agree that Bush is a loser, but Bush did (somehow) win the 2nd election, and we DO NOT have a tyranical gov.! We are NOT run by fear! And we have people standing up for ourselves EVERY SINGLE DAY! And how dare you say Democracy fell to it's knee's on 9/11... DEMOCRACY STANDS STRONG HERE! IT ALWAYS WILL!
TGM
QUOTE(WormSelf @ Jul 10 2007, 10:47 AM) *
I agree that Bush is a loser, but Bush did (somehow) win the 2nd election, and we DO NOT have a tyranical gov.! We are NOT run by fear! And we have people standing up for ourselves EVERY SINGLE DAY! And how dare you say Democracy fell to it's knee's on 9/11... DEMOCRACY STANDS STRONG HERE! IT ALWAYS WILL!



Bush and Blair are responsible for murdering more people than all the terrorists put together, 911 and other terrorist attacks happen because the USA poke their snouts into other Countries business. Threatening them with war if they don't do as the USA dictates. DEMOCRACY STANDS STRONG HERE! IT ALWAYS WILL! yeah but fuck every one else who isn't a Yank
Wtiberon
QUOTE(TGM @ Jul 10 2007, 06:21 AM) *
Bush and Blair are responsible for murdering more people than all the terrorists put together, 911 and other terrorist attacks happen because the USA poke their snouts into other Countries business. Threatening them with war if they don't do as the USA dictates. DEMOCRACY STANDS STRONG HERE! IT ALWAYS WILL! yeah but fuck every one else who isn't a Yank

I think everyone agrees President Bush is not a great president. He isn't a great orator and tends to make bad decisions...but a murderer, a tyrant? I think former Germans, Italians, and Soviets would beg to disagree and laugh at you. Tyrants tend to not allow criticism of his government, comedians to make fun of him, maintain a law that allows the congress to remove him from office. Some call the patriot act as steps toward that process but remember Congress passed that ridiculous bill because they couldn't be bothered to read it. Thing is, we have a great deal of power here in the United States, however we also can't be bothered to exercise it. We complain about lobbies who put the congress in their pocket, we complain about the rich, we complain we complain we complain. If what is going on in government really bothering you then organize yourself like some political websites have and become a political force (trust me us right wingers are starting to fear some of these websites like Moveon.org). Oh wait I forgot, that would mean you couldn't sit around all day smoking blunts, playing video games and watching conspiracy "documentaries." Its not the government that failed you, you failed the government.
mnotr2
"Its not the government that failed you, you failed the government."

I've always been under the impression that the US Government was a servant of the People.. not the other way around. If what you mean is that the Government we have chosen.. or by absence from participating in the process, allowed other's to chose for us.. is the government we deserve... I'm not buying that either. If I hired a person to run my house, cook, clean, pay the bills, feed the guard dogs.. etc etc etc... I'd be pissed as all hell to find out that behind my back they invited their buddies over to party drinking my booze, eating my food, and generally looting and trashing the place, embezzled funds, and picked fights with my neighbors and sicked my guard dogs on them.. etc etc etc.. So why don't I just fire them??? I'm hoping that you and others will see a lot more of this slogan in the year to come-
CLEAN SLATE IN 2008!!!!
docmarionum1
QUOTE(Wtiberon @ Jul 10 2007, 06:59 AM) *
I think everyone agrees President Bush is not a great president. He isn't a great orator and tends to make bad decisions...but a murderer, a tyrant? I think former Germans, Italians, and Soviets would beg to disagree and laugh at you. Tyrants tend to not allow criticism of his government, comedians to make fun of him, maintain a law that allows the congress to remove him from office. Some call the patriot act as steps toward that process but remember Congress passed that ridiculous bill because they couldn't be bothered to read it. Thing is, we have a great deal of power here in the United States, however we also can't be bothered to exercise it. We complain about lobbies who put the congress in their pocket, we complain about the rich, we complain we complain we complain. If what is going on in government really bothering you then organize yourself like some political websites have and become a political force (trust me us right wingers are starting to fear some of these websites like Moveon.org). Oh wait I forgot, that would mean you couldn't sit around all day smoking blunts, playing video games and watching conspiracy "documentaries." Its not the government that failed you, you failed the government.


Hes not out of office yet, don't jump to conclusions wink.gif
docmarionum1
QUOTE(mnotr2 @ Jul 10 2007, 08:03 AM) *
"Its not the government that failed you, you failed the government."

I've always been under the impression that the US Government was a servant of the People.. not the other way around. If what you mean is that the Government we have chosen.. or by absence from participating in the process, allowed other's to chose for us.. is the government we deserve... I'm not buying that either. If I hired a person to run my house, cook, clean, pay the bills, feed the guard dogs.. etc etc etc... I'd be pissed as all hell to find out that behind my back they invited their buddies over to party drinking my booze, eating my food, and generally looting and trashing the place, embezzled funds, and picked fights with my neighbors and sicked my guard dogs on them.. etc etc etc.. So why don't I just fire them??? I'm hoping that you and others will see a lot more of this slogan in the year to come-
CLEAN SLATE IN 2008!!!!



Don't I wish it was as easy as "clean slate in 2008". But all the problems left by Bush will take decades to fix. War, Oil prices, economy etc.
TGM
QUOTE(Wtiberon @ Jul 10 2007, 12:59 PM) *
I think everyone agrees President Bush is not a great president. He isn't a great orator and tends to make bad decisions...but a murderer, a tyrant? I think former Germans, Italians, and Soviets would beg to disagree and laugh at you. Tyrants tend to not allow criticism of his government, comedians to make fun of him, maintain a law that allows the congress to remove him from office. Some call the patriot act as steps toward that process but remember Congress passed that ridiculous bill because they couldn't be bothered to read it.


I think plenty of people in Europe find laughing the last thing on their minds. Surely you must realise the reason the bulk of Europe was against Bush's destruction of Iraq was because they knew you can't justify removing a evil tyrant from power, by killing/murdering innocent people. . And countless allied soldiers. On the excuse of weapons of mass disappearance lol THE ENDS DON'T JUSTIFY THE MEANS. You don't see draft dodger Bush with his tin hat on leading from the front shooting his gun, and you don't see Bush defenders with their tin hats on fighting either. Bloody hypocrisy stinks imo.
mnotr2
QUOTE(docmarionum1 @ Jul 10 2007, 08:08 AM) *
Don't I wish it was as easy as "clean slate in 2008". But all the problems left by Bush will take decades to fix. War, Oil prices, economy etc.

Which is why cleaning out the whole lot and starting fresh will get the job hopefully on track as soon as possible. Sooner started.. sooner done.
I have to agree with you thou.. I think a whole generation will have this mess in the background of their lives... and quite possibly, their children's' lives as well. Even if all we do is switch out some seats of power to lean the other way... and the other side is just as bad, like switching seats on the Titanic thinking that's going to help... this still can go according to Murphy's law... "Things left to themselves go from bad.. to worse." American credibility has always been sketchy with our neighbors and the USA being seen as bossy, arrogant, interfering, controlling.. and if we don't get our way.. down right violent. All this hasn't helped our image much... and it doesn't help that our Government and corporate media don't like having mirrors held up so we can get a glimpse of how we as a people are seen by our neighbors. The majority of US citizens are decent, caring, family orientated people who share much with the common people of other countries along those lines.. it's our leadership that's been out of control. Time to put this rabid dog down and get a new dog that can hunt.
MovieFan
LOL, I can't be bothered with the 9/11 thing here but enough to say that I believe it was an inside job and don't think much to this debunking loose change documentary.

What is good though is the great debates and discussions that go on in the documentary sections on videos posted.

It's good to see people with opposite views debating stuff as thats the best way to learn IMO and it happens a lot in this section which is brilliant.
Wtiberon
QUOTE(MovieFan @ Jul 10 2007, 11:19 AM) *
LOL, I can't be bothered with the 9/11 thing here but enough to say that I believe it was an inside job and don't think much to this debunking loose change documentary.

What is good though is the great debates and discussions that go on in the documentary sections on videos posted.

It's good to see people with opposite views debating stuff as thats the best way to learn IMO and it happens a lot in this section which is brilliant.


Can't be bothered? As in researching both sides of the argument? If thats the case its a dangerous idea to listen only to one side make up your mind then ignore anything else in contradiction. I thoroughly listened to both sides and researched both arguments and came to my own conclusions. Did you do the same?

I agree with ya about the debating though I love it. Its much more fun to do it on a website where a majority are against you and see how many you can get to think straight smile.gif.
Taktic
Inside job dear sheeple.

docmarionum1
This "edit" to Loose Change, though pointing out various problems in the doc such as unconfirmed info, or editing it to change the context, does the same exact thing. Not to mention its extremely annoying just watching the same doc with text in the way.
And3h
QUOTE(Wtiberon @ Jul 10 2007, 04:24 PM) *
Can't be bothered? As in researching both sides of the argument? If thats the case its a dangerous idea to listen only to one side make up your mind then ignore anything else in contradiction. I thoroughly listened to both sides and researched both arguments and came to my own conclusions. Did you do the same?

I agree with ya about the debating though I love it. Its much more fun to do it on a website where a majority are against you and see how many you can get to think straight smile.gif.


Wtiberon i think your a CIA Agent man, any time someone makes a remark against bush or the US Govt. your the first to post and try your damndest to discredit it.

Just to mention a few...
http://quicksilverscreen.com/ipb/index.php...st&p=119285
http://quicksilverscreen.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=27053
http://quicksilverscreen.com/ipb/index.php...st&p=119418
http://quicksilverscreen.com/ipb/index.php...st&p=120129

rolleyes.gif
Wtiberon
QUOTE(And3h @ Jul 10 2007, 10:16 PM) *
Wtiberon i think your a CIA Agent man, any time someone makes a remark against bush or the US Govt. your the first to post and try your damndest to discredit it.

Just to mention a few...
http://quicksilverscreen.com/ipb/index.php...st&p=119285
http://quicksilverscreen.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=27053
http://quicksilverscreen.com/ipb/index.php...st&p=119418
http://quicksilverscreen.com/ipb/index.php...st&p=120129

rolleyes.gif

You'd be correct I am.
People have a lot of misconceptions about the government, trust me the government ain't smart enough to pull off this sort of crap. So I'm trying to do my part to help people realize that government isn't this big scary group of old men who are trying to get you. Almost all government employees are underpaid overworked folks who just want to clock in and out and go home to their families. None of them is paid well enough to execute a plan to kill thousands of people and trust me to execute this plan in the manner the conspiracy theorists are suggesting would have taken thousands of people and hundreds of millions of dollars if not a billion. Money like that just doesn't go unnoticed, it would send red flags everywhere. Frankly its an insult to us and to everyone who works their ass off everyday, lay their life on the line to make you safe and not only not be appreciated but to be spat on and called a conspirator. If there is no incentive in pay and the people you swore to protect couldn't give a fuck why should I give a fuck about your safety?
I understand there's a natural tendency to distrust the government but holy shit to accuse them of killing thousands of people and labeling them murderers what kind of fuck scum are you? Problem is you have no idea what is going on and you make uniformed, quick judgments. When there was no internet it wasn't a problem but now it spreads like a virus and has real world repercussions. All we are asking is look at the evidence, both sides and make an informed decision. Don't be so quick to blame us because it's so horrible no way a person could have done it...it must be the government. Well guess what fuck nut we are people too.
docmarionum1
QUOTE(Wtiberon @ Jul 10 2007, 09:53 PM) *
You'd be correct I am.
People have a lot of misconceptions about the government, trust me the government ain't smart enough to pull off this sort of crap. So I'm trying to do my part to help people realize that government isn't this big scary group of old men who are trying to get you. Almost all government employees are underpaid overworked folks who just want to clock in and out and go home to their families. None of them is paid well enough to execute a plan to kill thousands of people and trust me to execute this plan in the manner the conspiracy theorists are suggesting would have taken thousands of people and hundreds of millions of dollars if not a billion. Money like that just doesn't go unnoticed, it would send red flags everywhere. Frankly its an insult to us and to everyone who works their ass off everyday, lay their life on the line to make you safe and not only not be appreciated but to be spat on and called a conspirator. If there is no incentive in pay and the people you swore to protect couldn't give a fuck why should I give a fuck about your safety?
I understand there's a natural tendency to distrust the government but holy shit to accuse them of killing thousands of people and labeling them murderers what kind of fuck scum are you? Problem is you have no idea what is going on and you make uniformed, quick judgments. When there was no internet it wasn't a problem but now it spreads like a virus and has real world repercussions. All we are asking is look at the evidence, both sides and make an informed decision. Don't be so quick to blame us because it's so horrible no way a person could have done it...it must be the government. Well guess what fuck nut we are people too.


The government isn't smart enough to pull this off? No one said Bush was the one who could have planned this all if it was done by the government. If this is the truth, any person working for the government wouldn't know about it, it would be the higher ups. The Bush administration wanted to attack Iraq, and clearly they have no problem with all the dead U.S. and Iraqi soldiers, so why would they care about a few thousand more? If 9/11 was reason enough to wage war, it was totally worth it to them. And is the internet that bad? So it spreads information which isn't the "official" explanation told by the government and the news. Its a way to get information thats not part of the governments propaganda. With the internet, it allows people to make more informed decisions because they CAN get information.
TGM
We live in modern times, a time when people of the world wants answers to questions. And are able to question the answers without the fear of repercussions. |Now supposing we all agree the official explanation of the twin towers. In my mind there is still some questions that need to be answered. Off the top of my head... for an example.

How does aviation fuel burn hot enough to melt steel? Now I'm no expert, but I did pay attention in physics/science lessons...
docmarionum1
QUOTE(TGM @ Jul 11 2007, 04:40 AM) *
We live in modern times, a time when people of the world wants answers to questions. And are able to question the answers without the fear of repercussions. |Now supposing we all agree the official explanation of the twin towers. In my mind there is still some questions that need to be answered. Off the top of my head... for an example.

How does aviation fuel burn hot enough to melt steel? Now I'm no expert, but I did pay attention in physics/science lessons...


Not only melt steel, but in the case of the Pentagon and Flight 93, vaporize it.
And3h
QUOTE
All we are asking is look at the evidence, both sides and make an informed decision. Don't be so quick to blame us because it's so horrible no way a person could have done it...it must be the government. Well guess what fuck nut we are people too.


You dont think we have looked into both sides of the story? Asked many questions in favour of the Govt.? If you have seriously researched into your so called presious government then you would be ashamed that you have stood by a bunch of "Fuck Nuts" that dont do you any good.

Thanks for your amusing reply mate, it sums you ignorant "Fuck Nuts" right up. Loose Change and Martial Law(Alex Jones) are not the only insights into 9/11 and 'The Illuminati'. You should really look deep into it and then come back to us and appoligize for being a stuck up prick who can accept your living in a country run by dictators.
Wtiberon
QUOTE(docmarionum1 @ Jul 10 2007, 11:22 PM) *
The government isn't smart enough to pull this off? No one said Bush was the one who could have planned this all if it was done by the government. If this is the truth, any person working for the government wouldn't know about it, it would be the higher ups. The Bush administration wanted to attack Iraq, and clearly they have no problem with all the dead U.S. and Iraqi soldiers, so why would they care about a few thousand more? If 9/11 was reason enough to wage war, it was totally worth it to them. And is the internet that bad? So it spreads information which isn't the "official" explanation told by the government and the news. Its a way to get information thats not part of the governments propaganda. With the internet, it allows people to make more informed decisions because they CAN get information.

So lets say the higher ups did come up with this complex plan. Who executed it? You guys seem to think they have androids or something at their bid and call that will carry out any order no matter how extreme that simply isn't the case. The government is made up with people like you. People who have friends and family. So if your trying to blame the higher ups remember this...WE VOTED THEM IN! So if they did pull off 9/11 as you think then its really OUR fault. Get off your ass organize yourself and get better politicians in those offices. You know what apathy leads to? Loss of Freedom.
Wtiberon
QUOTE(docmarionum1 @ Jul 11 2007, 07:50 AM) *
Not only melt steel, but in the case of the Pentagon and Flight 93, vaporize it.

This has been answered over and over and over. However the answer is not sexy enough for you so you dismiss it even though all EXPERTS agree on the explanation. I guess a guy with a degree in WWW forums knows better eh?
Wtiberon
QUOTE(And3h @ Jul 11 2007, 09:29 AM) *
You dont think we have looked into both sides of the story? Asked many questions in favour of the Govt.? If you have seriously researched into your so called presious government then you would be ashamed that you have stood by a bunch of "Fuck Nuts" that dont do you any good.

Thanks for your amusing reply mate, it sums you ignorant "Fuck Nuts" right up. Loose Change and Martial Law(Alex Jones) are not the only insights into 9/11 and 'The Illuminati'. You should really look deep into it and then come back to us and appoligize for being a stuck up prick who can accept your living in a country run by dictators.

No you haven't, at least not objectively. Its people like you that start cults like Heaven's Gate and participates in group suicides because you fell under the spell of some fuck tard who is good at spewing convincing theories. Its people like you that camp out at area 51 even after the government came clean on what actually happened there. Its people like you that play D&D and commit suicide when their character dies. You are an extremist and you won't be satisfied until your fucked up reality comes true. Then what. What would you do? Nothing, because you are just another internet fat kid who hits the bongs and wacks off to woman they'll never get. While others of us are involved in the government trying to fix the problems that plague it instead of whining endlessly and attacking people who aren't a left wing nut job.

docmarionum1
QUOTE(Wtiberon @ Jul 11 2007, 09:15 AM) *
So lets say the higher ups did come up with this complex plan. Who executed it? You guys seem to think they have androids or something at their bid and call that will carry out any order no matter how extreme that simply isn't the case. The government is made up with people like you. People who have friends and family. So if your trying to blame the higher ups remember this...WE VOTED THEM IN! So if they did pull off 9/11 as you think then its really OUR fault. Get off your ass organize yourself and get better politicians in those offices. You know what apathy leads to? Loss of Freedom.


People like me? Hmm, ok so they have friends and family, and they want the best for them. That I would agree, but do they care about the mass public? If they can help reach their own goals, which WOULD help their friends and family, why not? 9/11, whether or not planned by the government, did help the Bush administration.

We didn't vote Bush in to office in 2000. Gore won Florida, even with the ballot problems. Without the problems on the ballot, leading many people to vote for Nader instead of Gore just made it a closer race. It isn't the fault of the people who didn't vote for Bush, they didn't vote for him. The blame of poor decisions by the government shouldn't just be blamed on the citizens. The ones affected most by 9/11 weren't the ones who were voting for Bush. New York didn't vote for Bush. And of the 30% who did, most aren't in New York City.
Wtiberon

Almost 50% of Americans don't vote. Really ask yourself, did you vote in the 2000 election (assuming you were old enough)? If you didn't then you have no leg to stand on to criticize the process that took place. That process was laid down hundreds of years ago and if you don't like then back someone who will change it. Organize a lobby in Washington to push reform in the general elections and the electoral college. But my feelings is that it really doesn't bother "that much" does it? Imagine the change that could take place if the 50 percent who sit quietly, complaining, decided to organize and make a change. The NRA, Big Tobacco, Religious, and Health Insurance Lobbies wouldn't stand a chance.
docmarionum1
QUOTE(Wtiberon @ Jul 11 2007, 12:11 PM) *
Almost 50% of Americans don't vote. Really ask yourself, did you vote in the 2000 election (assuming you were old enough)? If you didn't then you have no leg to stand on to criticize the process that took place. That process was laid down hundreds of years ago and if you don't like then back someone who will change it. Organize a lobby in Washington to push reform in the general elections and the electoral college. But my feelings is that it really doesn't bother "that much" does it? Imagine the change that could take place if the 50 percent who sit quietly, complaining, decided to organize and make a change. The NRA, Big Tobacco, Religious, and Health Insurance Lobbies wouldn't stand a chance.


Well, no, if you don't vote (and are legally allowed to) then you have no right to complain. But what about the 150 million that did vote? Who cares what they want right?

You really think that the public stands a chance against the NRA, Tobacco, Religious and Health Insurance Lobbies? HAH!

They have no where near as much money as big corporations. Those lobbies have billions of dollars in money. Though maybe millions of people would have enough money, they also have other things they need to use it for. Not everyone has hundreds of dollars just sitting around.
Wtiberon
once again you are uniformed and making quick fire conclusions based on your own misunderstands. In short your talking out of your ass. The U.S. is made has a population of 217.8 million eligible voters in the U.S. So half of that is 108 million people. All lobbyists combined spend roughly 2 billion dollars on political campaigns a year. Thats hundreds of companies. It would cost those 108 million people just 20 dollars each to match that and 30 dollars to surpass it. Not to mention the sheer number of votes that would sway ANY senator or representative to listen really hard to what you had to say. Remember the number one goal of congressmen is to get reelected. Now do you think the people have no chance against big business? Our problem is apathy and apathy kills.
docmarionum1
QUOTE(Wtiberon @ Jul 11 2007, 12:33 PM) *
once again you are uniformed and making quick fire conclusions based on your own misunderstands. In short your talking out of your ass. The U.S. is made has a population of 217.8 million eligible voters in the U.S. So half of that is 108 million people. All lobbyists combined spend roughly 2 billion dollars on political campaigns a year. Thats hundreds of companies. It would cost those 108 million people just 20 dollars each to match that and 30 dollars to surpass it. Not to mention the sheer number of votes that would sway ANY senator or representative to listen really hard to what you had to say. Remember the number one goal of congressmen is to get reelected. Now do you think the people have no chance against big business? Our problem is apathy and apathy kills.


Well you are assuming that all these people are against whichever lobby being apposed. Not everyone is going to support it, so it would require more than $20 each. Not to mention the people shouldn't have to pay to fix a problem. And, clearly based on Bush's actions, not everyone cares about what voters have to say. A large majority of voters are against the War, yet we are making no efforts to withdraw. And even if you could convince congressmen, their power is being sapped also. The president doesn't care or listen to Congress.
Wtiberon
QUOTE(docmarionum1 @ Jul 11 2007, 01:45 PM) *
Well you are assuming that all these people are against whichever lobby being apposed. Not everyone is going to support it, so it would require more than $20 each. Not to mention the people shouldn't have to pay to fix a problem. And, clearly based on Bush's actions, not everyone cares about what voters have to say. A large majority of voters are against the War, yet we are making no efforts to withdraw. And even if you could convince congressmen, their power is being sapped also. The president doesn't care or listen to Congress.

Your hopeless aren't you. Such a defeatist attitude. Fuck it then I guess lets pull up tent and leave things going the way they are then eh? Why try when Bush obviously has super powers and 'Skull and Cross Bones' behind him (which they recently teamed up with the Jews who really run this country) there is nothing we can do. You really wouldn't pay 20 or 30 bucks to fix the U.S. Government? It takes money for these guys to get elected and if you aren't contributing and the NRA is, who do you think they are going to listen to? Thats right the NRA. Well I'm obviously wasting my time on you, let me know how that apathetic whining goes for ya in changing things.
docmarionum1
QUOTE(Wtiberon @ Jul 11 2007, 12:53 PM) *
Your hopeless aren't you. Such a defeatist attitude. Fuck it then I guess lets pull up tent and leave things going the way they are then eh? Why try when Bush obviously has super powers and 'Skull and Cross Bones' behind him (which they recently teamed up with the Jews who really run this country) there is nothing we can do. You really wouldn't pay 20 or 30 bucks to fix the U.S. Government? It takes money for these guys to get elected and if you aren't contributing and the NRA is, who do you think they are going to listen to? Thats right the NRA. Well I'm obviously wasting my time on you, let me know how that apathetic whining goes for ya in changing things.


naive idiot..You really think you have the power to make a difference? I didn't say people wouldn't contribute, but they CAN'T. If you are struggling to get by, do you contribute a few days of food to an unlikely cause at best? Maybe all the lobbies spend only 2 billion a year, but if they did require more money, wouldn't they use it? Oh right, they only make hundreds of billions a year, theres no money to spend on lobbying. Did I say Bush has super powers? NO. But when The top 1% of the U.S. (the part that mostly favors Bush) has about 90% of the wealth, its not exactly a piece of cake to raise more money than them, eh? Sitting and doing nothing wont help, but just raising some money wont either.
Wtiberon
QUOTE(docmarionum1 @ Jul 11 2007, 02:14 PM) *
naive idiot..You really think you have the power to make a difference? I didn't say people wouldn't contribute, but they CAN'T. If you are struggling to get by, do you contribute a few days of food to an unlikely cause at best? Maybe all the lobbies spend only 2 billion a year, but if they did require more money, wouldn't they use it? Oh right, they only make hundreds of billions a year, theres no money to spend on lobbying. Did I say Bush has super powers? NO. But when The top 1% of the U.S. (the part that mostly favors Bush) has about 90% of the wealth, its not exactly a piece of cake to raise more money than them, eh? Sitting and doing nothing wont help, but just raising some money wont either.

Lmao. You have no idea wtf you are talking about do you. You just want to be a defeatist and shit all over everything. I already showed you the math of how it could be done so easily but you don't want to listen, you just want to make excuses. I find it funny that the people who most complain about the government are the ones who can't be bothered to pitch in. They want everything handed to them without effort. Wake up bud, life don't work that way. Get of your pampered spoiled ass, move out of your parents basement and do something about it. But I know you'll just give some reason why you can't so don't reply anymore cuz I get dumber every time I have to read you chicken shit posts.
Wtiberon
QUOTE(docmarionum1 @ Jul 11 2007, 01:01 PM) *
That I would agree, but do they care about the mass public?

Holy fuck I just read this. You think that someone turns off your humanity when you get hired by the government? Your too dumb to keep talking to.
TGM
QUOTE(Wtiberon @ Jul 11 2007, 03:18 PM) *
I guess a guy with a degree in WWW forums knows better eh?


Do mean George WWW Bush? Commonly know as George Wanker Wanker Wanker Bush tongue.gif
docmarionum1
QUOTE(Wtiberon @ Jul 11 2007, 01:36 PM) *
Lmao. You have no idea wtf you are talking about do you. You just want to be a defeatist and shit all over everything. I already showed you the math of how it could be done so easily but you don't want to listen, you just want to make excuses. I find it funny that the people who most complain about the government are the ones who can't be bothered to pitch in. They want everything handed to them without effort. Wake up bud, life don't work that way. Get of your pampered spoiled ass, move out of your parents basement and do something about it. But I know you'll just give some reason why you can't so don't reply anymore cuz I get dumber every time I have to read you chicken shit posts.


-Yes I like shitting all over everything

-And I explained why your "math" doesn't work out. Its not as easy as raising some money.

-Pitch in to what? The point of having a government is to run the country so the populous doesn't have to and can do their jobs. Voting for who you want to run the country, doing a job and paying taxes should be enough. People shouldn't be required to fix the governments mess with their own money.

-Actually, my ass isn't pampered or spoiled, and I don't live in my parents basement. I live on their third floor, sheesh.

-Oh, and the reason I cant move out..uh, I'm a minor, that a good enough reason? No, I should go move out, just like you did right?

QUOTE(Wtiberon @ Jul 11 2007, 01:40 PM) *
Holy fuck I just read this. You think that someone turns off your humanity when you get hired by the government? Your too dumb to keep talking to.

No, not just rank and file government workers, I'm talking about the ones in charge.

Oh, and its "you're to dumb".....

"your" refers to the possessive while "you're", meaning "you are" was the one you were looking for.
TGM
QUOTE(Wtiberon @ Jul 11 2007, 07:40 PM) *
Your too dumb to keep talking to.


You're too dumb to keep talking. Oh the irony wink.gif
Wtiberon
QUOTE(docmarionum1 @ Jul 11 2007, 02:58 PM) *
-Yes I like shitting all over everything

-And I explained why your "math" doesn't work out. Its not as easy as raising some money.

-Pitch in to what? The point of having a government is to run the country so the populous doesn't have to and can do their jobs. Voting for who you want to run the country, doing a job and paying taxes should be enough. People shouldn't be required to fix the governments mess with their own money.

-Actually, my ass isn't pampered or spoiled, and I don't live in my parents basement. I live on their third floor, sheesh.

-Oh, and the reason I cant move out..uh, I'm a minor, that a good enough reason? No, I should go move out, just like you did right?
No, not just rank and file government workers, I'm talking about the ones in charge.

Oh, and its "you're to dumb".....

"your" refers to the possessive while "you're", meaning "you are" was the one you were looking for.

You really correcting grammar on the internet? I didn't realize you were a minor now I really know you don't know wtf you are talking about but thats to be expected. A dictatorship is a government where the people don't have to be involved but the whole point of a democracy is that the "PEOPLE" have the power and MUST be involved. Otherwise it slips into dictatorships. Graduate college get some life experience and then you can talk like you know what you are talking about.

I'm being serious here and not trying to sound like a dick, quit with the negative "I can't do anything about it" mentality. A lot of people do that and they end up failing at life and blame everyone else for their failures. Why do you think people flock to America in the millions? Because it only takes hard work to make it here, there is no other bullshit like class, sexism, or racism that gets in their way. You only get what you put into something.
docmarionum1
QUOTE(Wtiberon @ Jul 11 2007, 02:16 PM) *
You really correcting grammar on the internet? I didn't realize you were a minor now I really know you don't know wtf you are talking about but thats to be expected. A dictatorship is a government where the people don't have to be involved but the whole point of a democracy is that the "PEOPLE" have the power and MUST be involved. Otherwise it slips into dictatorships. Graduate college get some life experience and then you can talk like you know what you are talking about.

I'm being serious here and not trying to sound like a dick, quit with the negative "I can't do anything about it" mentality. A lot of people do that and they end up failing at life and blame everyone else for their failures. Why do you think people flock to America in the millions? Because it only takes hard work to make it here, there is no other bullshit like class, sexism, or racism that gets in their way. You only get what you put into something.


The People must be involved by voting on who they want to represent them, hence called "representatives". Everyone doesn't make the decisions, they vote for who they want to make the decisions. Thats not dictatorship.

No class, sexism or racism? LOL, where do you live? If you want that, the answer is communism.

-Class-some people are poor, others are richer..is that not class?

-Racism-People are targeted as terrorists by the way they look..is that not racism? Or is ever Muslim a terrorist?

-Sexism-If theres no sexism why has there been no female president? Why are there fewer females with power? Oh yea, its because they are stupid, they can't handle the job.

Clearly the amount of work you put into something doesn't always translate to what you get. Why is it that the people working multiple jobs are the poorest? Clearly celebrities are so rich because they work so much harder than someone who works 80 hours a week.

I'm sorry I haven't been to college, or had "life experiences", whatever those are. But it seems like I'm still more knowledgeable than you. So I guess it doesn't really matter than you are older. If this were the criteria for knowledge and intelligence, I guess Bush must be a genius. He went to Yale after all.

You really don't know what you're talking about, but that's to be expected.
Wtiberon

Again you have no idea wtf you are talking about. Class is a divide which prevents people from moving in and out of class. We use terms like middle class upper middle class more as a gauge to see where people are financially not as a divide within the population itself. If we did have class people like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, and other entrepreneurs who lived in middle and lower middle class families could never have made the type of money they made. America does not have that distinction and people aren't discriminated against because they are poor, people are poor for other reasons.
QUOTE
-Racism-People are targeted as terrorists by the way they look..is that not racism? Or is ever Muslim a terrorist?

WTF does that have to do with what we are talking about? The Racism I'm talking about is when people don't get a job because they are a different color and guess what...its illegal in the United States. Besides, if for the next three years tall redheaded dudes were setting off IEDs, Suicide bombings and crashing planes into buildings I don't think it would be a big deal if we look at tall read heads with suspicion..do you?

QUOTE
-Sexism-If theres no sexism why has there been no female president? Why are there fewer females with power? Oh yea, its because they are stupid, they can't handle the job.

Compare your retarded statement with the rest of the world. The majority of the world exists in a patriarchal society, where woman have no rights, and no chance of advancing. We have woman CEOs, woman secretary of States, woman governess, Woman senators, I mean fuck the 2nd person in line for the presidency is a Woman, wtf do you want? Your lone argument is no female president?
QUOTE
Clearly the amount of work you put into something doesn't always translate to what you get. Why is it that the people working multiple jobs are the poorest? Clearly celebrities are so rich because they work so much harder than someone who works 80 hours a week.
Sigh. Ask a celebrity how much they suffered, how much the scrapped, how many defeats they had before they made it. A celebrity, once they make it, does have a pretty sweet life however to get from here to there is a tough, agonizing road. People eat peanut butter and jelly while living in libraries so they can afford to stay in LA. I mean Jewel lived in a van by the beach before she made it. Would you live in a van for years by the beach to land your dream job? Doubt it. Whether you want to believe it or not people get what they put in. Do people win the lottery? Sure they do. But its a really really small percentage.
You ask anyone who has to handle multiple jobs what their biggest regret in life is....not staying in school. Kids like yourself can't be bothered with school and have no skills. You think you are automatically owed a job when you get out of school? If you didn't retain anything and can't even operate at a semi-high level why should they hire you? Wake up kid your heading towards failure.



docmarionum1

QUOTE
Again you have no idea wtf you are talking about. Class is a divide which prevents people from moving in and out of class. We use terms like middle class upper middle class more as a gauge to see where people are financially not as a divide within the population itself. If we did have class people like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, and other entrepreneurs who lived in middle and lower middle class families could never have made the type of money they made. America does not have that distinction and people aren't discriminated against because they are poor, people are poor for other reasons.


No, class doesn't mean there is no chance of getting out, it isn't like the Caste system. But there are classes nonetheless.

QUOTE
WTF does that have to do with what we are talking about? The Racism I'm talking about is when people don't get a job because they are a different color and guess what...its illegal in the United States. Besides, if for the next three years tall redheaded dudes were setting off IEDs, Suicide bombings and crashing planes into buildings I don't think it would be a big deal if we look at tall read heads with suspicion..do you?


The racism you're talking about? So that racism doesn't matter? And yes, it would be a problem if you looked at tall redheads suspiciously just because a few set off bombs, it doesn't mean that the thousands who are tall and have red hair are terrorists.

QUOTE
Compare your retarded statement with the rest of the world. The majority of the world exists in a patriarchal society, where woman have no rights, and no chance of advancing. We have woman CEOs, woman secretary of States, woman governess, Woman senators, I mean fuck the 2nd person in line for the presidency is a Woman, wtf do you want? Your lone argument is no female president?


Being less sexist than the rest of the world doesn't mean that this society isn't sexist.

QUOTE
Sigh. Ask a celebrity how much they suffered, how much the scrapped, how many defeats they had before they made it. A celebrity, once they make it, does have a pretty sweet life however to get from here to there is a tough, agonizing road. People eat peanut butter and jelly while living in libraries so they can afford to stay in LA. I mean Jewel lived in a van by the beach before she made it. Would you live in a van for years by the beach to land your dream job? Doubt it. Whether you want to believe it or not people get what they put in. Do people win the lottery? Sure they do. But its a really really small percentage. You ask anyone who has to handle multiple jobs what their biggest regret in life is....not staying in school. Kids like yourself can't be bothered with school and have no skills. You think you are automatically owed a job when you get out of school? If you didn't retain anything and can't even operate at a semi-high level why should they hire you? Wake up kid your heading towards failure.


There are plenty of examples of celebrities that had to do nothing for riches. People that inherit riches and do no work, such as Bush. He just got money from his dad, even after running multiple businesses into the ground, he just got more money.

Working multiple jobs doesn't mean you dropped out of school, yes there are many people who did that and suffered, but how bout all those immigrants you were talking about? And I know many people, despite having a college education working multiple jobs. Why? Because the economy is so bad that not everyone can get a job.

Kids like me eh? Just feel the need to keep insulting me because thats all you have? Yes, I know I'm heading towards failure, but that is because this entire country is. Its hard to be successful if I'm dead, ya know? But, maybe, if this country (or world) isn't destroyed by the end of Bush's presidency, I will realize that I should have worked harder in school..Being in one of the top High Schools in NY and taking four AP classes in my Junior year just wasn't enough. I should have spent 23 hours a day working.
izabadgirl
QUOTE(docmarionum1 @ Jul 10 2007, 01:35 PM) *
This "edit" to Loose Change, though pointing out various problems in the doc such as unconfirmed info, or editing it to change the context, does the same exact thing. Not to mention its extremely annoying just watching the same doc with text in the way.



I have to agree with doc on this one. I saw nothing but the opinion of one guy ( Mark Iradian), Seen this same scenario done with "screw 911 mysteries also." We have Dylan Avery that done "Loose change" and have info on this guy http://www.myspace.com/loosechange911 we know his age, where he lives and what he likes to do in his spare time and then we have Mark Iradian where we have info like hum wow can't find nothing on this guy..who is he? Has anyone thought or pondered the idea of what our government might think of these and what to do about the conspiracy 911 documentaries? I mean I'm sure they just don't sit there and do nothing. You don't think it's a good possibility that they get someone to try to debunk this documentaries? This is just my opinion so don't brow beat me please, but you can disagree if you want it's cool.
docmarionum1
QUOTE(izabadgirl @ Jul 11 2007, 03:58 PM) *
I have to agree with doc on this one. I saw nothing but the opinion of one guy ( Mark Iradian), Seen this same scenario done with "screw 911 mysteries also." We have Dylan Avery that done "Loose change" and have info on this guy http://www.myspace.com/loosechange911 we know his age, where he lives and what he likes to do in his spare time and then we have Mark Iradian where we have info like hum wow can't find nothing on this guy..who is he? Has anyone thought or pondered the idea of what our government might think of these and what to do about the conspiracy 911 documentaries? I mean I'm sure they just don't sit there and do nothing. You don't think it's a good possibility that they get someone to try to debunk this documentaries? This is just my opinion so don't brow beat me please, but you can disagree if you want it's cool.


Indeed. Even though I am skeptical about what Loose Change claims, This debunking is no more, if not less credible than the original. For instance, the part about Osama Bin Laden being seen in a hospital. Then, this doc uses an article with a quote from Osama Bin Laden claiming he wasn't there. So, obviously we are supposed to believe him about his own whereabouts? That makes sense.
izabadgirl
QUOTE(docmarionum1 @ Jul 11 2007, 04:01 PM) *
Indeed. Even though I am skeptical about what Loose Change claims, This debunking is no more, if not less credible than the original. For instance, the part about Osama Bin Laden being seen in a hospital. Then, this doc uses an article with a quote from Osama Bin Laden claiming he wasn't there. So, obviously we are supposed to believe him about his own whereabouts? That makes sense.



I wouldn't take what Osama has to say as truth either. What does bother me with the whole Osama Bin Laden thing is why haven't we caught this guy? Seems like every time we get close he slips away? Our government caught all the other guys but not this one...Why is that? Where is my opinion... It is well known that the Bid Laden family is a rich and powerful and have ties with our banks and the Bush family and although the Bid Laden family claim that Osama is the black sheep and they don't want anything to do with him, he is still family and we all know how blood is thicker then water. Don't the most of us have a family member we don't care for, but don't want to see harm come to them either...when I say harm I mean death. You know if Osama got caught that is exactly what would happen! So the Bin Laden family may have made accusations like we don't like what he does either, but if you harm one hair on his head we will pull our money out. Money talks and bullshit walks and money is the root of all evil. BTW I have heard others say and think the same thing so this is not just my opinion.
And3h
QUOTE(Wtiberon @ Jul 11 2007, 03:27 PM) *
No you haven't, at least not objectively. Its people like you that start cults like Heaven's Gate and participates in group suicides because you fell under the spell of some fuck tard who is good at spewing convincing theories. Its people like you that camp out at area 51 even after the government came clean on what actually happened there. Its people like you that play D&D and commit suicide when their character dies. You are an extremist and you won't be satisfied until your fucked up reality comes true. Then what. What would you do? Nothing, because you are just another internet fat kid who hits the bongs and wacks off to woman they'll never get. While others of us are involved in the government trying to fix the problems that plague it instead of whining endlessly and attacking people who aren't a left wing nut job.


Bravo cool.gif

The sad thing is you never shut up... your always on here moaning about shit. Get a life.
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